so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

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Mooger5
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by Mooger5 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:51 pm

Rule of thumb: everyone complains about Ebay prices when buying and use same Ebay prices as reference when selling.
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by ninja6485 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:58 pm

Mooger5 wrote:Rule of thumb: everyone complains about Ebay prices when buying and use same Ebay prices as reference when selling.
Yup, pretty much
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by elsquirrel » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:16 am

Personally, I think a lot of those simple architecture vintage synths still represent OK value. Synths like ax-60/80, jx-3p, sixtrak etc even more so. You're still getting a - in most cases- well built, analog polyphonic synth. Compared to a tb-303 or any number of other vintage items, I don't think the prices are that CraZy. (Assuming you're not buying a 2k juno 60 on ebay)

Whether this changes with the release of new polyphonic budget analogs remains to be seen. As with anything vintage...buy the ticket take the ride..... :hippie:

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by gcoudert » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:04 pm

ninja6485 wrote:
Alex E wrote:I'm ready to sell my 106... It's... Not THAT great.
A lot of people say that about the 106. Not so many say that about their Juno-60s.
When I bought my second-hand Juno 60 back in 1985 (my first synth), I could have got a 106 but I wanted an arpeggiator and - I can hear you all laughing - I thought that MIDI thing would never catch on! When I said to the guy in the shop that the two sounded different, he replied that they couldn't because they had the exact same parameters and I almost believed him. I can't actually decide if I miss the 60 or not. I probably wouldn't buy another one (I paid 6500FF / about £520 for it at the time) but it did sound bloody good.
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by madtheory » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:12 pm

ninja6485 wrote:
Alex E wrote:I'm ready to sell my 106... It's... Not THAT great.
A lot of people say that about the 106. Not so many say that about their Juno-60s.
Probably two reasons for that- the 60 is perceived as more vintage and therefore better simply due to age; and the 60 has that bass boost that really only means the cutoff slider doesn't go up as high as it does on the 106, so the 106 seems brighter- which again is perceived as less vintage/ warm.
gcoudert wrote:When I said to the guy in the shop that the two sounded different, he replied that they couldn't because they had the exact same parameters and I almost believed him.
Again, that's just the slider position. Given a fully calibrated 60 and 106, you can get them to sound exactly the same if you take the filter difference into account (push it slightly higher on the 60, everything else the same).

More tech info to explain why the filters are the same, but set up differently because of components:
http://sequence15.blogspot.ie/2008/10/w ... -from.html

Also- arpeggiators are over rated :)

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by ninja6485 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:28 pm

gcoudert wrote:
ninja6485 wrote:
Alex E wrote:I'm ready to sell my 106... It's... Not THAT great.
A lot of people say that about the 106. Not so many say that about their Juno-60s.
When I bought my second-hand Juno 60 back in 1985 (my first synth), I could have got a 106 but I wanted an arpeggiator and - I can hear you all laughing - I thought that MIDI thing would never catch on! When I said to the guy in the shop that the two sounded different, he replied that they couldn't because they had the exact same parameters and I almost believed him. I can't actually decide if I miss the 60 or not. I probably wouldn't buy another one (I paid 6500FF / about £520 for it at the time) but it did sound bloody good.
The midi thing is too funny!

I each of my Juno 60's sounded different. I had one with older serial and one with newer. I sold the cleaner one, and kept the warmer fuzzier one even though it looks like c**p. I love that thing.

And salesman are always full of s**t. The salesman at Sam ash told me my Access Virus TI was analog...
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by madtheory » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:46 pm

Messing with the calibration on junos can do a lot of surprising things. Crank up the resonance trimmer for very nice overdrive.

But factory spec cal 60 and 106 will sound the same, see above.

And ya, sales people :)

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by ninja6485 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:02 pm

madtheory wrote:Messing with the calibration on junos CA in do a lot of surprising things. Crank up the resonance trimmer for very nice overdrive.

But factory spec cal 60 and 106 will sound the same, see above.
I definitely suspect something like this is going on with my Juno. It's just... nicer! I thought maybe some components were wearing out and the oscillators were not as tightly in tune, which might be what you're suggesting with calibration. Or not, I'm not familiar with diagnosing that issue. It does however overdrive nicely when I push it. That, and some a*s hat removed the ground prong on its power cable, so I have to be very careful with it. Whatever's wrong, it's wrong in the best way possible, and it's been exactly the way it was since I bought it about 8 years go!
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by Mooger5 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:15 pm

madtheory wrote: Probably two reasons for that- the 60 is perceived as more vintage and therefore better simply due to age; and the 60 has that bass boost that really only means the cutoff slider doesn't go up as high as it does on the 106, so the 106 seems brighter- which again is perceived as less vintage/ warm.
[...]
Again, that's just the slider position. Given a fully calibrated 60 and 106, you can get them to sound exactly the same if you take the filter difference into account (push it slightly higher on the 60, everything else the same).

More tech info to explain why the filters are the same, but set up differently because of components:
http://sequence15.blogspot.ie/2008/10/w ... -from.html

Also- arpeggiators are over rated :)
No, madtheory. Cornutt was in fact the first to notice the difference between the 60´s and 106´s HPF circuits, and BTW I believe the Boutique designers took the info and added it to their marketing blurb, but you did misread it.
The 106 HPF is the one with the bass boost, not the 60. And it doesn´t have any influence on the LPVCF cutoff. What you do to make both synths sounding more similar is to set the 106 HPF to 1 instead of 0. 0 adds the boost, 1 bypasses it. And there´s more to the 60 (and the 6) vs. the 106 in terms of circuitry that add to the sound differences. The 6 and 60 waveform amplitudes across the audio range are leveled by an exponential voltage control circuit that has a temperature compensated resistor at its core. On the 106 the exponential control is done entirely by the CPU. The slight temperature drift and consequent compensation on the 6 and 60 is what makes them to sound warmer than the software based 106, hence probably the bass boost on the latter. The 6/60 have therefore the most VCO sounding DCOs anywhere. It doesn´t make the 106 the worst synth of the bunch by any means. They´re just diferent. The 106 being slightly more precise is a better bass machine. The 6/60 is a tad more sloppy. The 106´s envelopes are also faster, snappier than the chip based 6/60´s. I´d say it´s a good example of software envelopes done right.
All synths have one characteristic in common: despite being DCOs, the oscillator cores are virtually identical to the ones found in the Jupiter 8. Roland had been using the same oscillator throughout the entire line like, since ever. The CEM based 101, 202 and JP are the only exceptions. There might be another one or two probably. Other than these, it´s the same winning saw core design. If you love the Jupiter 8´s tone and don´t need any of the extra features, such as crossmod and the like that makes it go "woink sqwoink" the 6/60/106 will get you close.
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by ninja6485 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:21 pm

The Juno 60 also doesn't suffer from the voice chip issue the 106 does. So something is definitely different. IFRC the 60 also has the same filter as the Jupiter 8?
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by Mooger5 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:30 pm

They all have the same filters and VCAs. The 80017a chip in the 106 is the same IR3109 filter and the same BA662 VCA chips found in the other Junos, the Jupiters, and the SH synths, in a different package. Just the Alphas and the JX8p and Super JX have a different design.
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by madtheory » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:00 pm

Maybe I did misread, but what about the unbuffered 1252 VCA, which is buffered in the 106? Unbuffered causes a HF rolloff which would make the 6/60 sound "warmer".

And ya, the voice problem in the 106 is apparently caused by the packaging becoming conductive as it breaks down. It's exactly the same circuit, just in a package. When you remove the packaging by dissolving it, they are the same parts as the 6/60.

All those Roland polys are so alike that it is possible to dial in all the same sounds. With some significant omissions such as no PW control or mod on some of the dual oscillator polys such as the JX3P and JX8P.

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by Mooger5 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:31 pm

madtheory wrote:Maybe I did misread, but what about the unbuffered 1252 VCA, which is buffered in the 106? Unbuffered causes a HF rolloff which would make the 6/60 sound "warmer".
Just checked. They´re all buffered!
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by Walter Ego » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:53 pm

ninja6485 wrote:The Juno 60 also doesn't suffer from the voice chip issue the 106 does. So something is definitely different. IFRC the 60 also has the same filter as the Jupiter 8?
I have a second hand 60 that the seller found in his uncle's closet where it had resided for two decades. Despite missing one slider cap, I have never had any voice issues or faulty anything on it. I haven't owned a 106 but I can't say I'm very interested. And I happen to think the arp is not minor add-on. I'll take the sound and the arp of the 60 over the minimal MIDI implementation of the 106 any day.

But as far as DCO vs VCO tone goes, it still sounds digital to me. I would never describe the tone of the Juno as fluid or liquid, even without the chorus. It's mushy and somewhat dull and doesn't sing like Roland gear from the 70s. That's just the design, not necessarily a criticism.

I think the real story here is the outrageous price of the 106, which has come even with the 60. I still think the 60 is a much better made synth all around. How much is too much for quality?
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by knolan » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:39 pm

Don't own the Juno60 (do one the Juno 106) but think £1000 for a Juno60 is a good price. It's a true classic. don't see that as excessive in any way.

I think Walter Ego's appraisal of it's sound is wide off the mark. It's hugely respected, constitutes THE classic Roland sound of the 80's, has about as much character as the best of them, and is loved and sought after the world over.

Not saying it's quite a Minimoog ot Oberheim OBX in terms of strength of sound, but it has it's own strong and unique place in both the history of synthesizers and in the history of recorded music (which is a more important indicator as to the stature of a synthesizer in my opinion because that's an indicator of it artistic and cultural impact)

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