deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

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balma
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deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by balma » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:52 pm

Hey guys, how can we obtaing a good combination of kick with a bass, leaving the opportunity to other sounds to bright???

I have been trying to improve my skills on this area during years, but I can't reach such a good sound like this one:



we'll that Lexicon Avenue is my concept of a deep powerful perfect kick & bass


I make the question here, because I only use hardware synths. And I do not use mixers or softwares to record my productions.
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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by GeneralBigbag » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:20 pm

If you're not using mixers or software, then the standard approaches of : EQ, compression, and side-chaining the bass with the kick may be difficult... what outboard eq and comps do you have?
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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by killedaway » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:23 pm

whatever kick they used, there is a pile of compresssion on it, to give it that really pronounced click at the beginning. i think a lot of the body is due to high compression as well.

in any event, this sort of thread belongs in Sound Production, not General Synthesizers, since it's mostly referring to production techniques. Help might've also been a good choice.
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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by futureworlder » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 pm

balma wrote:Hey guys, how can we obtaing a good combination of kick with a bass, leaving the opportunity to other sounds to bright???

I have been trying to improve my skills on this area during years, but I can't reach such a good sound like this one:



we'll that Lexicon Avenue is my concept of a deep powerful perfect kick & bass


I make the question here, because I only use hardware synths. And I do not use mixers or softwares to record my productions.
So, how do you record your mixes? :? And yes, this thread belongs in Production or Help..

Well, that's going to be a bit problematic as the technique used in your example involves using both a mixer (or a sound card with a AUX send bus) and a compressor sidechained, setup for hard-knee compression, whereas the kick drum is gating the bassline, a technique known as "ducking". When you use a high-aspect ratio on compression, forcing the gate to snap shut on the bass when the drum signal is high, this is often called "push-pull" or "pump" compression.

In a typical 4/4 house drum program of 16 beats, like the one in your example, the bass is programmed to swing with the kick on 1, 5, 9, and 13, where it's being ducked, or compressed, so the bass material is most audible on 3,7,11 and 15. combined with the compression, the end result is a nice clean pumping sound, and the drum and bass appear to stay in their own respective frequency ranges when in fact, the gate is keeping the two sounds from occupying the same space at the same time. It also can be used to over-emphasize or prop up a weak kick drum, as the gate is wide open on the kick, suppressing the bass, so all you hear is the kick in the lower frequencies on those beats.

The technique demonstrated here was pioneered in the 70's and 80's, when Daniel Bangalter (father of Thomas Bangalter, one half of Daft Punk, in case you didn't know) was a big disco producer going by the name Daniel Vangarde and used a UREI LA compressor along with a DBX Subharmonic Synthesizer to make the rhythm section pump. Listen to the beginning of D.I.S.C.O. by Ottawan (for an example of this. It's highly likely that daddy Daniel had Thomas on his knee and showed him a few things when it came to producing disco which he then used to corner the market on the French "Filter Disco" House sound. In fact, some of his dad's gear most likely ended up in the Daft stable, i.e. 808, LinnDrum, MiniMoog, MS-20 etc. This of course is just speculation as noone really knows, but given the history of the first Daft incarnation (an indie-rock band called "Darlin') it's highly likely.

I can tell you though that the first 2 Daft albums were recorded using a simple Mackie 1202 mixer and an Alesis 3630 compressor sidechained to get that effect. I know this for fact as I've seen them live a few times (first in 1995 in NYC) and that's what they used in their live rig. Bangalter is a master of compression, and used it in their live set to achieve all kinds of effects that people rely on software for.

Some people bash this stuff to no end, calling it cheap, consumer or simply unprofessional, but it's a classic example of the audio alchemist turning lead into gold.

Anyway, that's how it's done.
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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by balma » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:16 pm

People is so handy here....


Well, I don not use mixers, or even external eqs . I just use my hardware, and must equalize sound by sound.

No external effects, no equalization, etc, and mostly of my patches are user, I like to work from scratch.


this is how I record:

I have two Roland SP 808 samplers. Each one of them, can sample two instruments at the same time, plus playing its own samples.

I press the sampling button at the same time on both samplers, and at the end, I join both .wav files into a single one.

This a truly puristic hardware production. I've been forced to work in this way during long years.

My friend "Hades would tell me: a-b-l-e-t-o-n balma a-b-l-e-t-o-n-

One of my tipical setups:

Two EMU command stations XL 7 and PK 7, working as the main brain, sequencing and triggering knob modulations.

For basses, I love to use my JUNO 106, but also bring basses from other synths like the WALDORF Micro Q and the JP 8080.

Since I use only 4 dual(8inputs) RCA to record a huge mess of synths, I use the LINE IN of my synths. Most of them, like the Korg Electribes, the V synth, the JP8080 and the Waldorf, can pass throught their circuits the audio of other synths.

I can connect four synths and record them at the same time with the two SP808 samplers. but using the line in, I can compose a track, and play it on real time, using 8 synths.


I love so much to work in this way, despite is messy, I can operate all the synth network as a huge unique machine. I practice 3-6 per day every day, making combinantions of synths.

As you see, my problem is not on the equipment, but I'm obviously making somethin wrong on the area of:

compression
eq
final mix
panning?????

Or in the area of synthesis itself. Maybe I'm not a good sound programmer. :shock:

I have some decent machines that can produce basses. But maybe I do not have a SUPERB bassy synth...?

Waldorf Micro Q
Roland Juno 106
V synth
JP 8080
just to mention a few synths that I have that could vomit a good bassline like Lexicon Avenue


No post of my tracks because is boring to listen the work of others, in this way.... je je

thanx guys.
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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by Hair » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:54 pm

I understand most modern house kicks are at the very least an acoustic kick drum hi passed somewhere around 150-300 hz layered with a 909 kick, then EQd and compressed together, it can even be something like 4 kicks together though. Most producers seem to be using the Vengeance sample sets though. Sidechain compression is definitely a big part of the sound, even if the pumping isn't obvious.

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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by Gamma Goblin » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:14 pm

Balma, is this what you're after? : )
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=01bd ... f6e8ebb871

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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:39 am

I'll just move this over to Sound Production.

There's no right way or wrong way to do things, but the only way to get things to sound like that is either using compressed samples and micro-automating your synth parts, which would be pretty hard on your setup, or using compression and EQ. That heavy sound is the sound of the compressor, not the sound of the synth.

Using external effects, EQ and compression doesn't compromise your 'working from scratch' ethos, they're just tools to shape the sound you want. If you enjoy working in a 100% hardware, live tracking kind of way consider getting an analogue console, some outboard compression and effects and then recording it all live to a 2-track. You can often find really nice analogue consoles second-hand these days for not much money, because people who own them are doing all their mixing in a DAW instead now. Consider an 8-bus console and putting your compression on the bus inserts, that way you can mix together a few different kicks, a few basses and compress them together, and you won't need to buy as many compressors. Lastly get someone to run your mix through Waves L1 to get that limited house sound, and you're done.

You might also find that your tracks end up sounding a bit cleaner and more defined if they're not going through a lot of stages of AD conversion running them through different synths.

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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by garranimal » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:39 pm

Here's a good how-to for Sidechain Compression in Cubase SX3. The SideChainCompressor he's using is free off the internet and it doesn't sound that bad.


The single book that helped me the most with the theories of mixing and mastering was The Dance Music Manual by Rick Snoman. Chapters on Mixing and Mastering are really helpful in breaking all this down and understanding every single concept before putting it all together.

A good quality hardware, or plug-in compressor and eq will be the ticket. A lot of the magic also happens during mastering.

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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by JSRockit » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:42 pm

balma wrote:Hey guys, how can we obtaing a good combination of kick with a bass, leaving the opportunity to other sounds to bright???
Ok, I'm going to interpret this question a different way... and not focus on the bass and kick. By other sounds, I assume that you mean everything that isn't kick and bassline? If so, you need to high pass everything that is not in the bass freqs giving them their own space.
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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by johans121 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:22 pm

JSRockit wrote:
balma wrote:Hey guys, how can we obtaing a good combination of kick with a bass, leaving the opportunity to other sounds to bright???
Ok, I'm going to interpret this question a different way... and not focus on the bass and kick. By other sounds, I assume that you mean everything that isn't kick and bassline? If so, you need to high pass everything that is not in the bass freqs giving them their own space.
You can't necessarily do this though all the time - you really can't use it as a hard and fast rule. Depending on what you are running through your HPF you will remove the essence of that particular sound - i.e. you will be filtering out the fundamental frequencies. If you simply adding effect type sounds, you're probably cool. If you are adding a melody with fairly complex timbres, you may not get what you are expecting..... Better yet is to try to use a parametric eq and adjust individual frequency bands - salt to taste.
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Re: deep-breath-chest kicks & basses. How to?

Post by balma » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:18 am

Gamma Goblin wrote:Balma, is this what you're after? : )
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=01bd ... f6e8ebb871

downloading

let me check out man, thanx for the download

I m gonna upload some examples of my results experimenting with kicks and basses.


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