Balancing track levels in headphones

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rickyd
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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by rickyd » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:25 am

@Stab,

Look, plain and simple, you still fail to show anywhere in this topic where I came in overestimating anything. I'm gonna quote madtheory's earlier response here,

"The mix is balanced when it sounds good- that means you need to judge what level each element needs to be at."

To answer you, Stab, yes and no. Like I said in an earlier post - if you even read it - I know that peak normalizing doesn't equate to sounds being audibly even, but for some of my drum sounds it somehow worked. They sounded good without me having to alter their volume levels and it worked for the end result. I did say too that some sounds were not balanced and I still had to mix them properly.

Again, in the first place I never even had the thought that you or madtheory were wrong about normalization/volume levels, I just simply said my experience (what I just wrote above) showed me slightly otherwise and that's all. I just can't see how you could get something as simple as that and turn it into all of this.

I'm gonna say again that the whole matter is totally unnecessary on your part because you guys took things out of context. Mistakes like that is what destroys what could otherwise be a very nice forum experience.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by madtheory » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:54 am

rickyd wrote:The mix is balanced when it sounds good- that means you need to judge what level each element needs to be at.
You forgot the italics on "you", a vital emphasis you seem to have missed.

Look, you're not even "slightly" right about normalising. I gave you the historical context and explained why your example was about sampling, not about mixing. I don't know how to put it any more simply apart from telling you that you're plain wrong. It's a pretty bad argument you're giving- "I normalised some samples, then I used them in a mix, therefore normalising is good for mixing". Sampling and mixing are separate processes. In fact, normalising is bad for mixing if you're under the impression (as you are) that normalised= good. It's the same fallacy you have with the meters: peak @ 0dB= good. Wrong!

You're incredibly attached to being right despite posting under a pseudonym. This is a problem for you. Your "forum experience" is entirely your own. You could always read about Dunning-Kruger, learn from it, then come back and post under a new pseudonym. That way no one will ever know that you were wrong about something. Although if I did that myself I'd need a new pseudonym every week at least...

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by rickyd » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:08 am

madtheory wrote:You forgot the italics on "you", a vital emphasis you seem to have missed.

Look, you're not even "slightly" right about normalising. I gave you the historical context and explained why your example was about sampling, not about mixing. I don't know how to put it any more simply apart from telling you that you're plain wrong. It's a pretty bad argument you're giving- "I normalised some samples, then I used them in a mix, therefore normalising is good for mixing". Sampling and mixing are separate processes. In fact, normalising is bad for mixing if you're under the impression (as you are) that normalised= good. It's the same fallacy you have with the meters: peak @ 0dB= good. Wrong!

You're incredibly attached to being right despite posting under a pseudonym. This is a problem for you. Your "forum experience" is entirely your own. You could always read about Dunning-Kruger, learn from it, then come back and post under a new pseudonym. That way no one will ever know that you were wrong about something. Although if I did that myself I'd need a new pseudonym every week at least...
You are totally off the wall. Your post clearly shows you're putting words where they didn't even come from. Where in the h**l do you see anything where I said normalizing was good for mixing? Everything you said here I did not say at all. You are clearly taking a simple statement and twisting it around, and that's what started this in the first place. All I said is that I normalized my damn samples, and it turns out that some of them sounded balanced for the mix. THAT'S IT. It meant nothing more or nothing less than that.

You keep going under this assumption that I came here saying that I'm right about everything. I mean, you gotta be kiddin. It's obvious you do not read carefully, otherwise you wouldn't have twisted any of this around in the first place. You are starting to make this more than it should be.
Last edited by rickyd on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by madtheory » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:21 am

OK, so you're either trolling, deluded, or having a bad day. To answer your question:

Here is where you show that you think normalising (with the meters) is a good idea:
rickyd wrote:However, what if you are just balancing track levels? Have any of you ever done this, making sure that all tracks peak the same level (watching the LED meters) and had the mix not translate well when checking on other sources?
And here:
rickyd wrote: Let me be clear on this. When I said "flat out even mix", I meant the meters peaking at the same levels. I know that doesn't equate to all of the sounds being audibly even, though from what my ears tell me, it does for some sounds...
Your opening post also shows that you fundamentally don't understand mixing because you have a mistaken idea of what the meters are for. That's ok, no one cares about being wrong or right around here. What is annoying though, is when you go to the trouble of posting well thought out pithy advice, and the guy looking for the advice has not learned a thing but now suddenly tells you you're wrong. There's no way to teach someone like that about the topic at hand- that is why I mentioned Dunning-Kruger, in the hope that you might gain some awareness.

Here is where you confuse subjective experience with fact and try to claim you're right despite just being given information to the contrary by Stab:
rickyd wrote: To Stab, I have experienced a slightly different take on normalizing.
(bold is mine).
This is why I said you're not even "slightly" right about normalising. So let go of the normalising thing, and get back to learning about mixing.

So here is an excellent article about how to mix on headphones:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/a ... phones.htm
Last edited by madtheory on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by rickyd » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:29 am

Dude, clearly you are making something out of nothing because you are looking way too hard into this. I told you and stab already that I agreed with what you said about normalizing. Never once did I say you were wrong about that. I stated everything there is to say over and over and you just keep starting the circle back over again and getting nowhere.

Why do you insist on taking everything I said out of context. Clearly you're the one with a problem.
Last edited by rickyd on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by madtheory » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:31 am

If you really thought it was nothing you wouldn't be in the thread posting as soon as I've just clicked submit, and then immediately editing your posts. No, you're just very attached to being right, and now you're making a bad attempt at creating a straw man. It would be a lot easier if you actually read people's posts, accepted the advice and looked at the links, and simply admitted you're wrong. Making mistakes (i.e. being wrong) is how we learn.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by rickyd » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:36 am

madtheory wrote:If you really thought it was nothing you wouldn't be in the thread posting as soon as I've just clicked submit. No, you're just very attached to being right, and now you're making a bad attempt at creating a straw man. It would be a lot easier if you actually read people's posts, accepted the advice and looked at the links, and simply admitted you're wrong. Making mistakes (i.e. being wrong) is how we learn.
You know what. Clearly you're stuck on being on your high horse and trolling and I reported your posts already. You keep talking about I'm stuck on being right this, being right that. Something that was never even said in the first place. You are the one delusional and it shows. You have a problem with creating problems.
Last edited by rickyd on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by madtheory » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:37 am

Now it's me who's stuck? Another poor attempt at a straw man.

Dunno why you reported anything, being told you're wrong is not an attack. Do you even realise a moderator told you you're wrong as well? Did you report him to himself? :lol:

As I said, making mistakes is how we learn. We as in humans. It's perfectly normal, don't worry about it.

Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:
1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 ... ger_effect

So it looks like you will get to step 4. Just not today...

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by rickyd » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:51 am

Clearly you have a problem somewhere.

Never once did I say anything about being right about mixing or normalizing.

Never once did I say anything about you or stab being wrong about your knowledge of normalizing or any other advice you were offering.

This whole altercation is a result of your own misinterpretation and your refusal to go back and actually READ before jumping to conclusions. Two pages of trying to get you to see that and you still can't?? Shaking my head

I'm not doubting your intelligence, but your lack of seeing others point of view is clearly showing.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by madtheory » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:54 am

You could just ignore my posts, and instead digest the advice on mixing that others have given you. O, wait, you're not. Aha! That is why I'm saying you're attached to being right.
rickyd wrote:Clearly you have a problem somewhere.

Never once did I say anything about being right about mixing or normalizing.

Never once did I say anything about you or stab being wrong about your knowledge of normalizing or any other advice you were offering.

This whole altercation is a result of your own misinterpretation and your refusal to go back and actually READ before jumping to conclusions. Two pages of trying to get you to see that and you still can't?? Shaking my head

I'm not doubting your intelligence, but your lack of seeing others point of view is clearly showing.
Well you do seem to be learning how to build a straw man. You now have every element of my argument assimilated as if it were your own. Nice work, but still not subtle enough.

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by rickyd » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:03 am

You're basking in your own childish ignorance. You're doing nothing but showing your lack of any kind of common sense whatsoever. You are stuck on the right or wrong thing, when it's clearly just a matter of you wanting to be an a*s hole
Last edited by rickyd on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by dubold » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:11 am

alright, so apart from the normalizing issue, was your question about metering answered?

There's a couple different types of metering - used to be there were analog VU meters on the console/tape machine, but as they were mechanical, they didn't reflect actual volume level of transients. So when I started out engineering, I was warned about the levels of sharp percussive stuff - one might think from the meters that it wasn't that hot. However the peaks could be distorting to tape, but because the meters reacted a bit slower, they'd miss the initial transient. You couldn't just rely on looking at the meters.

Digital meters are a bit different, but a lot of them are set up to show peak level. Whereas, like Stab Frenzy said, RMS is a closer approximation of how the human ear actually perceives things. You can set Reaper up to show both simultaneously. A combo of the two are useful for checking things, but you can't "mix with them" any more than you can drive home by looking only at the speedometer and tachometer.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by rickyd » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:17 am

@dubold, thanks for your contribution.

To be honest, the OP was not even about normalizing or metering. It was simply about whether or not to balance track levels with headphones. I mentioned watching LED meters but in a way pertaining to using it as an assisting method, not a primary way of mixing, then from there it got taken to a level it shouldv'e never gone. I just don't see how these guys could take something so simple and start a problem with it. If you, dubold (or any other user) browse through the topic, you will see that what I said had nothing to do with what these guys were making it out to be.

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by madtheory » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:40 am

rickyd wrote:You're basking in your own childish ignorance. You're doing nothing but showing your lack of any kind of common sense whatsoever. You are stuck on the right or wrong thing, when it's clearly just a matter of you wanting to be an a*s hole
Now that IS an ad hominem attack. I'm not reporting it tho. That would be silly. But the fact that you're now resorting to that speaks volumes.

Y'see, the thing is, you back tracked on the meters thing. And you still fail to see that you don't understand what they're for.

By the way, that SOS article I gave you the link to is definitive about headphone mixing. Come back and tell us what it says about meters...

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Re: Balancing track levels in headphones

Post by dubold » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:48 am

rickyd wrote: To be honest, the OP was not even about normalizing or metering. It was simply about whether or not to balance track levels with headphones.
yes, it's fine to do this, i give you permission. Also check on speakers though.

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