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Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:46 pm
by WakemanFan55
Hi there.
I was reading around on the internet and discovered Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1
i know that the Concertmate was aimed at the home market, and has this 10 voice polyphonic "organ" sound.
But do they have the same features exept from this "organ" sound
if not, wich one of them is best?, i cant find any comparison on these two on the internet

(I wasnt sure where to put this post, if it is more suitable in the Buyer's Guide, move it over there :) )

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:01 pm
by ronP
oo

Yes, one for Buyer's Guide, indeed . . .

Meanwhile, MOOG The Rogue has pitch and mod wheels and no organ polyphony preset.

The MG-1 has a polyphony preset, which is a transister organ sound that resembles a flat square wave x 10 voices, but with added resonance (and outboard effects) it can be musically usable. VSE member redchapterjubilee has some recordings of that sound in the Listening Lounge which are quite good.

:)

oo

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:14 pm
by WakemanFan55
Yeah sorry, wrong place to post it.
but thanks.

so the tweaking you can do on those two is basically the same?

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:45 am
by Automatic Gainsay
The polyphonic section of the MG-1 isn't an "organ," and it isn't 10 voices. It is fully polyphonic. Every key plays... you can hold them all down at once. This polyphonic section ends up being paraphonic, it is forced through a single filter and VCA arrangement. But, as was stated, this does not mean it is worthless. The filter and filter modulations affect it. I can sound very much like a synthesizer at any point, due to this. The only negative aspect is that it is either on or off, which means that you can't get any decay on the sound.

The Rogue and the MG-1 do not have the same functionality.
In some cases one exceeds the other, and in other cases, the other exceeds the one.

One of the primary things to remember is that with the MG-1, you may not like paraphonic synthesizers... but you don't have to play chords on them. If you don't play chords, you can think of the paraphonic section as an extra squarewave oscillator... and this oscillator is SEPARATELY TUNEABLE... so, basically... you can get 3 osc sounds. That, in itself, is an amazing boon.
On top of that... if you've got the paraphonic section lower in the mix than the two monophonic oscillators, and you happen to play two notes or a chord here and there, the ear is tricked into thinking that that chord occurred in the patch, and not in some extraneous squarewave polyphonic paraphonic section. With a little skill, it is very easy to fool the listener into thinking this is a full featured polyphonic synth.

A lot of differences are simply knob vs. slider.

Others are subtle tradeoffs. The MG-1 has sliders for modulation amount, the Rogue has switches. The MG-1 has switchable keyboard-filter-modulation, the Rogue has a slider. The MG-1 allows switchable octaves and a range of 2nd osc tuning. The Rogue a switch for the octaves of both oscs together, but allows interval tuning to an octave.

The MG-1 allows one osc to be set to square, and one osc to be set to saw.

The Rogue allows the env to affect the sync. Both have sync, but the sync modulation is manual on the MG-1.

The Rogue has a mod wheel and a pitch wheel.

The MG-1 has a variable ringmod effect.

The Rogue has overdrive, the MG-1 has polyphony.

In the end, I think it comes down to taste. The Rogue probably excels in sound quality, the MG-1 excels in having extra functionality.

The GOOD news is, despite both of them balancing out in a lot of ways, the Rogue is stupidly more expensive than the MG-1...

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:38 am
by Slickie
don't forget...no envelope control on that polyphony for the mg-1.....kind of a biggie for me...its either on or off.

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:59 am
by Automatic Gainsay
Slickie wrote:don't forget...no envelope control on that polyphony for the mg-1.....kind of a biggie for me...its either on or off.
Well, you're half right.
The polyphonic section is on or off, but as such, allows the attack stage of the envelope full control. It's only the release stage which has no effect.

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:54 pm
by redchapterjubilee
Plus you gotta alter your playing style to take into account that while the synth engine is fully polyphonic the envelope is not.

I had an MG-1 for three years (thanks for the props RonP!) and loved it. I played in a band for most of that time with a guy who used a Moog Rogue and we were able to compare notes soundwise. The Rogue seemed a slight bit fuller to me. The Rogue has Moog oscillators afterall, and the MG-1 does not. Both share filters though. I certainly prefer the MG-1 to the Rogue because of the ring mod, independent oscillator octave controls and the polyphony, which is cooler than it looks on paper. It is certainly useable. Plus the MG-1 is generally $200 - $300 cheaper than the Rogue.

If I love it so much why did I sell it? Well, my music started to change somewhat and I was looking for something a little more burly and wound up three synths later (thanks UPS! f**k) with my Source, which is beyond burly. But I often miss the immediacy and the thinner, brighter MG-1. I hope to get another one someday.

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:47 pm
by Slickie
yeah the MG-1 definetly has a thin sound to the oscillators....filter was ok though.

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:56 am
by Henfield
Other differences between the two include : 1) That the Rogue has CV and Gate Ins and Outs, while the MG-1 only has CV and Gate In, so the Rogue can control other mono synths, Moogerfoogers, etc... 2) The Rogue actually has an audio input to process signals through the Filter and VCA. The MG-1 has inputs, but they are directly routed to the outputs and do not process any sound through the synth. There are some mods listed on the net to fix this problem with the MG-1. and 3) The MG-1 was not designed for musicians, it was designed for people that had home stereos, so all of the audio inputs and outputs on the back are rca jacks, not the stndard 1/4" jacks that are on the Rogue. To me, the Rogue sounded better, but that may also be due to the fact that there was an audible whine from the rca outputs on the MG-1

One last difference is the standard Moog Pitch and Mod wheels on the Rogue, which the MG-1 does not have. This can be a deal breaker for most people.

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:00 pm
by WhinyLittleRunt
Never knew that the oscillators were not Moog...

I thought the entire synth was built by Moog for Realistic? Moog has their name stamped on the PC board inside.

You sure about that?

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:23 pm
by Automatic Gainsay
WhinyLittleRunt wrote:Never knew that the oscillators were not Moog...

I thought the entire synth was built by Moog for Realistic? Moog has their name stamped on the PC board inside.

You sure about that?
I had heard that before, too. There is a block of text supposedly written by someone largely involved in the creation of the MG-1 somewheres out there on the net wherein he says that, if I remember correctly.

Even so, I object to the notion that the MG-1's oscs are somehow "thin" because they're not Moog oscillators. If they're thin because they're not Moog, there are a LOT of thin oscillators out there... on popular synths! :) It is not difficult to get big broad sounds out of the MG-1.

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:47 pm
by redchapterjubilee
I don't know if the synth is thinner because of the non-Moog oscillators or if it's just a sub-par signal path. After all, there's no pro-quality output on the MG-1. The RCA's were horrible on mine so I used the headphone jack out. All I know is head-to-head with the other two Moogs I've spent time with (the Rogue and the Source) the MG-1 was not as full and did not have quite the presence that the other two had. Doesn't mean that the overall tone is necessarily "thin" but to my ears it was certainly a sharper, pointier sound than the other two. If given a choice between a Rogue or MG-1 I'd choose the latter everytime.

At one point I had gathered a lot of info on the MG-1 from the Internets, and one of the men responsible for the design of the MG-1 admitted that the MG-1 does not use Moog parts aside from the VCF. The rest of the parts were made in Italy. Moog designed the synth and ultimately put it together, but Radio Shack insisted on the cheaper parts, the organ tone and the RCA I/O's. Moog took the design and used stock Moog parts to make the Rogue, which began manufacture about 18 months after the MG-1 began production.

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:52 pm
by Automatic Gainsay
redchapterjubilee wrote:I don't know if the synth is thinner because of the non-Moog oscillators or if it's just a sub-par signal path. After all, there's no pro-quality output on the MG-1. The RCA's were horrible on mine so I used the headphone jack out. All I know is head-to-head with the other two Moogs I've spent time with (the Rogue and the Source) the MG-1 was not as full and did not have quite the presence that the other two had. Doesn't mean that the overall tone is necessarily "thin" but to my ears it was certainly a sharper, pointier sound than the other two. If given a choice between a Rogue or MG-1 I'd choose the latter everytime..
I would totally agree with that!

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:56 pm
by Automatic Gainsay
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@airmail.net>
To: inman@interpath.com,
synth-diy@mailhost.bpa.nl
Sender: owner-synth-diy@mailhost.bpa.nl
Subject: Re: Paul's "Moog"

>Paul S. designed the Radio Shack Moog! I'll be damned.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Since this pops up every now and then, and I'm taking a break bagging up
7,620 resistors, here is the "story".

Radio Shack has no engineering. Rather, that falls (er...'fell') under TSD
(Tandy Systems Design). Also, twice a year Radio Shack holds a private version
of COMDEX/CES, just for them! Vendors line up 50 deep and present their wares.
Back then (early '80s) about 40% of gear in a Radio Shack was bought 'outside'.
Most electronics was made in a Korean factory that Tandy owned a majority
share called EnCal (EnCal made all of Pioneer's and Alpine's car stereos
there).

So, during one of these mini-trade shows who is on the presentation list
(which TSD got in advance) but a one 'Dr. D. Luce'. Well, when I saw Mr.
PolyMoog on the list I had to see this. So sure enough here he wanders in
with a hand-made small synth. He demos it. Bernie Appel, the #1 decision maker
(er...the *ONLY* decision maker of what went in the store or not) had this type
of conversation (I am giving not exact, but the general idea. It was 16-17
years ago!)

BA: What the f*** is that piece of s***? (BA enjoyed treating all new
vendors this way. This was his equivalent of "Hello.")
DDL: It's a music synthesizer prototype. [Proceeds on a 3 minute demo. You
had 5 minutes to present. Period!!]
BA: (interested, but certainly not going to show it to the Yankee geek) How
the h**l do you plug it in?
DDL points out the 1/4" jack.
BA: Where in the holy h**l, in my store (they were always referred to as "my
stores") does that thing go? Up my a*s?

See, RS had not a single piece of gear that had 1/4" jacks! All RCA. BA knew
this.

DDL at this point looks like he's gonna puke. He's quivering & sweating like
a w***e in church (sorry, that's another BA expression!)

BA: Play me a tune. [DDL one-fingers a classical thingy.]

BA: That damn thing busted? What's with this 1 finger s**t?
[DDL explains about monophonic blah blah blah.]

BA turns to me.

BA: You know what the h**l he's talking about?
Me: (thinking this is a trick question) Err...yeah.
BA to DDL: We'll look at it. NEXT!!!!

So began the Luce/Schreiber effort. What he had was the boards out of a
Minimoog, no A440 osc, no noise, in a box. So, I got handed that, designed
the MG-1 version (added the organ stuff BECAUSE BA was convinced that typical
RS customers wanted more than 1 note). Added RCA jacks, ring mod do-dad. Then,
had to specify parts that Moog never had to use: cheapo pots. I'll admit it:
CHEAPO. They were ALPS and I think we paid (back then) about 23 cents apiece.

That is because the RS gross profit margin was an unheard of 63% (the
average of ALL the Forture 500 is like 8%) and lastly, I spent about 3 weeks
on just the panel layout and color scheme & wrote the Owner's Manual along
with, oddly enough, Steve Leininger who designed the TRS-80. He played a Vox
in a jazz band and BA wanted his opinion as well.

Luce and I went back & forth about 5 months until they delivered the
"pre-production" units. Moog made them, Tandy supplied most of the parts (we
had a company in Japan that bought parts and resold them to Tandy. One day
I'll tell my funny modem capacitor story.)

So, the story was:

a) Moog presented the original idea to RS
b) They dumped it on me. I had to make it "Radio Shack compliant". Which
meant a re-design. Used the 3046 + Tel Labs tempco for the VCO. More
Electronotes than Moog! Moog ladder filter, 3080 VCA. Prototype had mod
wheel; *PUNT!*. Cost like $3. Get real.
c) Moog built it.
d) Tandy had 18 months exclusive. Moog then made the Rogue which is my
design without the organ/ring mod, wheels back on.
e) No, I didn't get a free MG-1 or a Rogue.
f) No, I didn't get alot of money. At that time I was making about $21,500/yr.

Final note: NO!!! I DID NOT pick that stupid black felt that lays over the
sliders, then turns to tar. That was Luce's deal. But, I DID get Luce to send
me *every* piece of Moog literature at the time: still have it!

Paul Schreiber
Synthesis Technology

Re: Moog Rogue and Concertmate MG-1

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:15 pm
by sizzlemeister
You have to be kidding me - "not Moog oscillators". The entire thing was made in the Williamsville Moog factory. How can it not be anything but all Moog - unless you think non-Bob Moog designs aren't Moogs. The MG1 sounds fabulous.