Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by Phollop Willing PA » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:54 am

Soft synths will never ever replace the actual synth it tries to emulate.
stikygum wrote: .....Now I think people will realize how much better softsynths have become and that they can get these vintage synth sounds with alternative synths or equipment. Plus it allows for new material and sounds to be created instead. People should be more ambitious to try out other ways and synths for getting the sounds they want.
But your other points are valid.

*shudder*
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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by rockmanrock » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:13 am

Phollop Willing PA wrote:Soft synths will never ever replace the actual synth it tries to emulate.
stikygum wrote: .....Now I think people will realize how much better softsynths have become and that they can get these vintage synth sounds with alternative synths or equipment. Plus it allows for new material and sounds to be created instead. People should be more ambitious to try out other ways and synths for getting the sounds they want.
But your other points are valid.

*shudder*
I think soft synths (distributed far and wide for "free"), particularly the ones that are recreations of classics are pretty much adverts for the real thing and so have raised awareness of their existence and increased demand. It just feeds the GAS - "if only I had a real XYZ instead of this crappy emulation then my music would be perfect!".

So MS20s, SH101s, 808s, 909s, Jupiters, Moogs of any description and so on have been driven up to ridiculous levels. At the same time, things that people aren't aware of or currently think are c**p are going for next to nothing e.g. pretty much any sampler, FM synths, 90s ROMplers, big analogue mixing desks etc etc.

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by nadafarms » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:09 am

it's all true, really tough selling anything right now and prices are way way down from even 3 months ago. yikes!

all the deals wiss speaks of aren't as good as you might think given the current market value + how paypal and ebay bend your a*s over so much more these days than they used to. :cry:
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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by Architecture » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:59 am

its seems that even space echos have gone down quite a bit. I paid 699 for a RE501, which is half compared to what I have seen else where.

Now where I did get raped, was my TR909. Spent 1695 on it. Its a great drum machine, but its not worth 1695 to me, more like 1000-1100. Id like an 808 to go down in price too.

I agree that vintage analog is loosing its ground thanks to all the new analog that is out there. I mean, ever since I got into synths, real analog seems to be replacing virtual analog in a big way. These days there is almost no point to buy a VA, unless you want to do what analog cant.

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by Tardis » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:21 am

I have never, ever paid market value for "anything" new or used, nor do I ever intend to.
Most used gear (analog &/or digital) ends up being f**k junk & needs work anyway.
Then you throw money at it to get it working the way it should have in the 1st place.

New gear can be a pain in the a*s too...
Same scenario, only you deal with douchehole help desk/tech support people you can't understand... :argue:

As a general rule of thumb, never pay market value for anything, ever, period... ;)
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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by Steve Jones » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:37 am

I don't think that most vintage synths are over valued. Some few of them get stupid prices, such as 303's. These are the exception, driven by fads and hype. Classic synths are a rare commodity, there will never be any more of them appearing, their numbers are finite, yet the number of buyers is always increasing.

Yamaha made very few CS-80's, Moog made very few Multimoogs, Roland System 700's were made in the hundreds. There machines are old, rare, and especially, they sound fantastic and are still totally useable, and sound (to most people) far better than todays brittle digital DSP boxes and virtual instruments.

Look at an MS-20 or a Roland SH-2. If you look after them, they are incredibly reliable, needing only a re-cap every 20 years which is no big deal. There are no electronic parts in them that you couldn't easily find or sub, even the Korg 35 filter is simple to build from scratch. They sound fantastic, are engaging to play, and are a joy to use. For something like that, $1000.00 to $1500.00 is not a lot of money, considering what you pay for a modern plastic digital machine that is worth nothing after a few years.

Don't forget also, not all vintage synths are expensive. The good ones fetch good money because they are useful instruments that are sought after because they sound great. Think JP-8, Minimoog, MS-20, Prophet 5, ARP Odyssey/2600/2500, SH-2/5/7 Octave Cat, PPG, Korg PS series and so on. On the other hand, think of all the machines from that era that no-one pays much for because they were dogs, didn't sound good or were just c**p - Poly 800, most stuff from Casio, Technics, all the "badge engineered" machines that ARP and sequential had made in Italy by Seil, and machines which should have been good but just sounded a bit lame like the Yamaha CS-20M. This stuff doesn't fetch much at all except from people who don't do research and think that anything old must be good.

If you think old synths are expensive, go spend some time in old guitar world.... Yes, you will find some desperation sales going on in these tough times, but as most sales seem to be auctions now, the really good machines will still go for a lot because those with money will still compete for that which is rare.
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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by Malpine Walis » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:36 pm

Well, I don't really expect that prices for new gear are going to go down very much. There is a principal in economics that a company should charge as much cash as the buyers will pay and that much is fine. Against that, it is also true that competition tends to produce lower prices.

Neither is always and automatically true but to a major extent, they both are. Consider the Prophet vs Virus question that is fairly current. I don't see that Dave Smith is likely to lower his price to stores by very much despite the current economy. Doing so would hit his bottom line fairly hard. Yet the fact that the current Prophet is selling at the price that it is means that Access simply cannot charge as much as they might like for the Virus products.

That much seems to be enough about new products to set the stage for me to go into how the economy may play a role in the prices for used products. Again, sellers should expect to get the best price that buyers are willing to pay. However, if a seller wants too much cash for a product, then buyers are going to go looking at other options.

Remember the basic idea that everything old is new again. When shiny new products cost lordly amounts of cash, the people who are making that much money will buy them. Yet, the regular guy will buy what he can get for what he can afford.

Personally, I am a bit of an old fart but the fact is that I remember music going back to the 70's. In every year, I seem to remember that what was then viewed as retro sound has been a huge thing. Please don't get me wrong on this, musicians with expensive gear can make great music. However, there are vastly more people who can make worthwhile music than there are people who can afford expensive gear.
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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by hyphen nation » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:14 pm

yeah, I can't imagine that new production synths are going to drop in price, but I do think the used market is going to take a hit. There are plenty of synths out there that get sold used at roughly 15% off new...I think we are going to see this reset to an appropriate 30% just like every other instrument in the used market...this is for current production gear...now in terms of the vintage/eternal desire synths it really is going to depend upon what people have for $$$...yeah, a Jupiter may be worth X, but if no one can afford, or willingly spend X any more then a new base level is going to be set.

I am actually an optimist, but no one is predicting any kinds of loose cash flowing again any time soon...

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by lhm1138 » Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:58 pm

23 wrote:Oddly enough, it seems to me that no matter how much overall gear prices drop, regardless of economic state, people continue to complain about how expensive gear is.
One thing I do know, once inflation is factored in, it'd be unfeasible for me to own the amount of synths and caliber of synths I currently own back in 92, 87, and I won't even bother thinking of the 70s. The reason I can own what I own and have the degree of ownership I do is directly reflective of exactly how much prices have dropped.
That's the TROOF.

Back in the 90s when I started getting into this it was nearly impossible to find deals on the analog stuff because of the "electronica" / techno craze....at the same time, the digital stuff was still current enough to demand high prices as well. I saved for like 3 or 4 months to afford a cludgy Boss DR5 drum machine. It was about $500. Adjusted for inflation, today that would get you a nice piece of equipment that could probably sample and has 1,000 times the sequencer memory and capabilities as that thing. Now I look on classifieds and some simple workstation synth that would've cost me the equivalent of $1600 used in 1996 can be had for $150 today.

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by rockmanrock » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:38 am

lhm1138 wrote:
23 wrote:Oddly enough, it seems to me that no matter how much overall gear prices drop, regardless of economic state, people continue to complain about how expensive gear is.
One thing I do know, once inflation is factored in, it'd be unfeasible for me to own the amount of synths and caliber of synths I currently own back in 92, 87, and I won't even bother thinking of the 70s. The reason I can own what I own and have the degree of ownership I do is directly reflective of exactly how much prices have dropped.
That's the TROOF.

Back in the 90s when I started getting into this it was nearly impossible to find deals on the analog stuff because of the "electronica" / techno craze....at the same time, the digital stuff was still current enough to demand high prices as well. I saved for like 3 or 4 months to afford a cludgy Boss DR5 drum machine. It was about $500. Adjusted for inflation, today that would get you a nice piece of equipment that could probably sample and has 1,000 times the sequencer memory and capabilities as that thing. Now I look on classifieds and some simple workstation synth that would've cost me the equivalent of $1600 used in 1996 can be had for $150 today.
This is true, you can get a ton of hardware now for next to nothing, mainly due to the soft-synth hardware sell-offs. You only have to look at the studio pictures thread on here to see how much equipment people have now, so it can't truly be out of reach for many people. I remember back in the 90s, I had a small amount of gear and used to gawp at the interviews and studio pics of successful artists. Their collections of gear seemed massive and would have cost tens of thousands, the stuff of dreams. If you looked at those interviews now, they probably had the same or even less gear than people on the pics thread here. You can easily fill a room with usable stuff now for a couple of thousand pounds.

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by jp8080 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:01 am

i suppose we are all musicians and not economists...

prices will rise.

1. prices are low now because the UK pound has dropped. Most of the expensive tb's etc were ones with worldwide shipping. For a time, everything in the US was very cheap for those paying pounds and (to a lesser extent) euros.

2. prices will rise because governments are pumping more money into the system. more money with same supply same demand results in higher prices. Demand may drop some due to recession but not much (most people cut back on un-need expenditures like eating out, etc. but people still will save for their big items that bring them happiness). Also keep in mind the current recession is 16 months old now. Unless we are headed for depression it should (in theory!) end soon.

As prices rise, the very best thing to hold are tangible assets. Your paper money will be worth less in the future. Sad but true.

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by rockmanrock » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:30 am

jp8080 wrote:Also keep in mind the current recession is 16 months old now. Unless we are headed for depression it should (in theory!) end soon.
:lol: I think we're fked really! It's just getting started. Here in the UK we've had 10 years of boom, we're not going to get a mere 2 years of bust. Last time this happened (late 80s) the trough for house prices was 1996. Jobs are disappearing fast. There is too much bad debt in the system and they're trying to fix it by printing more money to lend out. Japan tried that in the 90s and it didn't work. "shitting in a slurry pit and expecting it to turn to gold" is my favourite description of what they're attempting.
jp8080 wrote: As prices rise, the very best thing to hold are tangible assets. Your paper money will be worth less in the future. Sad but true.
Confidence in fiat currency is certainly dwindling. Where do you put your money though? Gold? MS20s? I want to buy a house but they've lost 20% nominally in the last year (more when you take into account the fall in value of the pound) and it's predicted they'll lose another 20% in the year ahead.

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by novielo » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:50 pm

depending on where you are means lower prices.... i'm from canada and our dollars felt like rotten leaf at fall. it was at parity with the us$. wich means that an ms-20 that sold for 2000$us last year is the same price for me then now at 1500-1600us$... the dollar was at .77 last week... i think that scandinavian contries, and others, are in the same picture as well.

last year i bought most of my gears from the us because canadian stores did not adjust their price but now it's the opposite, i say to buy from canada. depending of what you're looking for, you can get a very good deal.

the price will drope in proportion of how many poeples whant to sell them for a lower price. also, more often synth are not morgage so poeple may whant to keep them even if they go bankrupt. why? because they already lost their home they certainly don't want to lost their pride, for musician it's often more their gear then the house. and if they keep, they can wait until credit comeback and use them to finance a new home.

the effect of substitue products may have more effects in the long run at synth price. as soft synth, va, or even modular. i think modular could get more of the market if they could only get those damn cabinet and power supply cheaper. this way you could buy yourself a "kit of module" to get an ms-20 and patch it with other module as well. clavia did well with the nord modular as well in this area.
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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by Syn the Sizer » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:20 pm

Secondhand values are dictated by whatever people are prepared to pay at the time.Economics as a whole don't really have much effect on secondhand goods prices that much its normally the demand that changes,especially with Musical gear,seondhand stuff tends to become more popular when the prices of new rocket,I've seen secondhand prices of gear rise since the financial crisis with people making money out of the demand but the prices seem a little hit and miss especially of ebay,you'll see the same items going for different prices,some cheaper or some far more expensive than current market values,Ebay is rather odd at times

I've had gear on ebay but have always listed with a reserve of what I was perpared to let it go,but some people are keen to get things as cheap as poss,I listed several items with a reserve that never got met,then after a couple of times listing they sold,beyond my reserve.which is down to the people looking at the time,I always found ebay to be like Fishing,sometimes you pull out a big fish and other days nothing,basically just luck of the draw.thats why I tend to use Buy it now or a reserve to protect my sale.

You'll find that people try and pray on the economic downturn,I've been selling stuff for a longtime now both in Music advertising sites and ebay and the Usual creeps enquire with "credit crunch mate would you take ££ instead of the asking price I can't afford this or that,Well all well and good but if you haven't got the funds to pay for something at its Reasonable asking price,then don't bother,if you have excess cash to buy something I'm sure you can stretch to that little bit more these are the people that piss me off and the ones who try and dominate prices and market demand and almost always are the people who haven't suffered financially in this crisis.

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Re: Synth sellers will soon need to drop their prices.

Post by meatballfulton » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:48 pm

Prices are definitely falling. Those in need of cash will continue to drive prices down for a while.

Spotted in the local CL this week: Moog Voyager (kb) $1700, MicroKorg $150, MPC500 $300...all well below typical eBay prices.

I'm seeing softness in used guitar and PA prices too.
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