Close as it comes to CS-80?

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CS_TBL
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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by CS_TBL » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:46 pm

Ok, so this evening I spent a few hours on this quick hack. Don't expect 1:1 accuracy compared to the original, and it's not complete either. I didn't bother for the last details, but it's all done with -tadaa- FM8. (about 11 instances or so)

"You know I love you, CS, but this is bullshit." (Automatic Gainsay)
s: VSL/FM8/EWQL/LASS h: DX7/FS1r/VL70/SY77/SN2r/JD800/JD990/XV88/Emu6400/Poly61/Amek35:12:2/genelec1030 r: Violin/AltoSax/TinWhistle c: i7-4770/RAM32GB/SSD
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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by Joey » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:54 pm

that actually was pretty impressive

then again I'm of the crowd that thinks emulation is pointless, and if you want analog buy analog...
No one cares, no one sympathizes,
so you just stay home and play synthesizers.

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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by bhrama » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:49 am

Thx for the heads up on matters. Not really trying to emulate, nor reproduce the "Blade Runner" note by note. I love the lush soundscapes and was hoping for some insight/suggestions of modern analog synths that have polyphony, and dynamics enough to produce such a vision.

I've heard great things about the Waldorf Q (quess its phoenix now?), but getting one of those is another matter. I'm not entirely fond of v-synths, being a button pushing, knob turning type.

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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by Solderman » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:15 am

That was actually very impressive CS_TBL. Seeing as it seems to require in-depth knowledge of FM8, and apparently tons of layering, maybe what most people balk at is all the trouble you have to go through with digital, just to get it "not quite there".
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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by CS_TBL » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:51 am

There wasn't much FM in it tho, it's all basic 2-op sawtooths 'n things. The relevant aspects are really things like LFO, envelopes, aftertouch (the horns), random pitch and extensive use of the effects section.

It has more to do with sound design in general than with FM8-sound design. I can get a similar horn from a free VSTi called Hahaha CS33. The only thing I did was recreate the situation with FM8. As I said earlier: the CS80 is not magic, it's design. One thing where FM is a step ahead is the detail you can put into waveforms. Some may b***h about how accurate a bare sawtooth is from the CS80 compared to -for instance- CS80v. With FM you can shape such a sawtooth ad infinitum, it may cost a few tweaks 'n operators, but you'll get there eventually.
"You know I love you, CS, but this is bullshit." (Automatic Gainsay)
s: VSL/FM8/EWQL/LASS h: DX7/FS1r/VL70/SY77/SN2r/JD800/JD990/XV88/Emu6400/Poly61/Amek35:12:2/genelec1030 r: Violin/AltoSax/TinWhistle c: i7-4770/RAM32GB/SSD
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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by MarcinP78 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:03 pm

Truly amazing, CS_TBL. It's a shame there are so few modern proper FM synths out there. FM's so intuitive once you develop an ear for it, no maths required. It's defo my synthesis of choice too.

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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by gs » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:18 pm

CS_TBL wrote:To be successful, it doesn't have to be a 1:1 CS80 though. If people praise the CS80 for being so lively and organic, then you only need to program your emulation or clone to be lively and organic as well in a comparable fashion. So what that the random values and the tonal fluctuations are a tad different. If it's lively then it's ok.
I like yer style there Lebowski. It's good to know theres people like you in the world. Aw shucks, I'm getting teary eyed now. :mrgreen:

As a musician who uses synths as sound creation tools, I seem to come from a place of listening first, then applying to the technology at hand later.

It is probably true that some musicians/keyboardists/synth-owners tend to approach things from the perspective of the very tools that were used to create something (say, back in the 70s: minimoog, Rhodes, Hammond, OBX, CS80, Prophet, whatever), and this type of musician tends to lock those tools to the music in his mind. Rather than the opposite approach, where I grew up listening to this stuff, did not associate it with a particular way of playing/tweaking particular pieces of gear.... with only the intention of trying to recreate that sound using the tools at my disposal. I've pretty much honed my programming skills in this way for over 20 years. I can usually get the sound I'm looking for most of the time. Sometimes better.
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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by CfNorENa » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:14 am

I'll join the chorus of praise for CS-TBL -- that was outstanding. Didn't know the softies could sound that good...

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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by CS_TBL » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:58 am

thx all! I'm actually about to start doing the perfect FM8 remix of that intro, gotta happen some time, so why not now..? I have already started to place markers at note-starts (going to play without metronome, so I'll use a marker strip as reference as for when to press a key)

CfNorENa: what you're saying is probably what gs meant: you primarily relate sound to the original machine. So, that a CS80 has envelopes, LFO's, scaling, oscillators etc. is completely acceptable to you, yet you are surprised when software also has envelopes, LFO's, scaling, oscillators etc. that you get similar sounds. So, you being surprised about software, what's the stereotype software sound for you?
"You know I love you, CS, but this is bullshit." (Automatic Gainsay)
s: VSL/FM8/EWQL/LASS h: DX7/FS1r/VL70/SY77/SN2r/JD800/JD990/XV88/Emu6400/Poly61/Amek35:12:2/genelec1030 r: Violin/AltoSax/TinWhistle c: i7-4770/RAM32GB/SSD
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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by CfNorENa » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:53 am

CS_TBL wrote:CfNorENa: what you're saying is probably what gs meant: you primarily relate sound to the original machine. So, that a CS80 has envelopes, LFO's, scaling, oscillators etc. is completely acceptable to you, yet you are surprised when software also has envelopes, LFO's, scaling, oscillators etc. that you get similar sounds. So, you being surprised about software, what's the stereotype software sound for you?
Truth be told, I'm still quite new to the world of sound synthesis. In high school, I had a Korg M1; in college, an 01/W. Then grad school, marriage, kids, a "real" job, etc., which meant about a 10-12 year lapse from making electronic music. Finally got back into synths this year, and fairly quickly put together the studio I now have. In starting up again, I must admit that I never gave software much of a chance, for the standard reasons normally given: I like the feeling of hardware, computer doesn't feel musical to me, etc. etc.

All of that, it must be emphasized, is not really an informed opinion, just a sort of irrational aversion to music through software. And some of my feelings about software have been confirmed whenever I listed to demos of, say, Reason or Komplete. They just seem lifeless to me (that would be my stereotype, I suppose). But your CS80 emulation was really impressive. Maybe I'll change my mind one day...

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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:49 am

CS_TBL wrote:CfNorENa: what you're saying is probably what gs meant: you primarily relate sound to the original machine. So, that a CS80 has envelopes, LFO's, scaling, oscillators etc. is completely acceptable to you, yet you are surprised when software also has envelopes, LFO's, scaling, oscillators etc. that you get similar sounds. So, you being surprised about software, what's the stereotype software sound for you?
CS, you're plainly very skilled in synthesis, and as such, are able to very effectively emulate an approximation of the CS-80 sound. Your recording is excellent!

However, simply because something can be emulated (especially by a person who has above-average skills to do so) does not mean that the emulation proves there is no difference.

Yes, the CS-80 is a system, but it's a system utterly unlike any (especially software) system which one might use to emulate it. Let's face it, software does not actually have oscillators, LFO, scaling, etc. It has algorithms, etc. which emulate the sound of such things. The more people work to make those algorithms trick our ears, the less we'll be able to tell the difference... but not being able to tell the difference and there not being a difference are very different things. It is disingenuous to indicate that these two systems are the same when one is not only designed to fake the other, but designed to do it in a way which is completely foreign to the first.

The CS-80 does what it does when you turn it on (well, maybe not, ha ha ha). It is the system it is, and it does what it is designed to do. It's sound is the result of that system and the result of what happens to electrons when those electrons are forced to do what that system makes them do. While it may be possible to emulate the audio outcome, it is not possible to emulate the expressive nature, unique outcomes, and personal experience of performing music on the CS-80 (unless someone is going to go to the trouble of not only creating complex emulative software, but also a high-quality physical interface). While plenty of people here don't care about that aspect, THAT aspect is where the sounds you're emulating came from.
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Re: Close as it comes to CS-80?

Post by b3groover » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:51 am

I think the point CS_TBL is trying to make is that while there are certainly quantifiable differences between two synthesizers (be they analog or digital or hardware or software), the similarities usually outnumber the differences.

Of course the devil is in the details. :)

Don't get me wrong, I have as much gear-lust as the next guy, but I also have a (small) budget. Limitations can be a very creative force. It is sometimes better to use what you have and find ways around the instruments "features". For instance, I've been lusting after an Andromeda for years... or another analog poly (like a CS80!) I would still love to have one. In the meantime, my SY77 and SY99 have become my go to lush pad monster synths. And with the right programming they are capable of very beautiful analog-esque textures. And yet they are not analog, so that inspires a different way of playing and creating.

This kind of ties in to the discussion about the Novachord and putting it into a modern musical context. Luckily people are not very familiar with its sound, so that should be relatively easy to do.

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