Psychedelic hardsynth

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etnie12
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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by etnie12 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:09 am

tx in advance :D

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by CapnMarvel » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:20 pm

clusterchord wrote: anyways, back on topic, i guess psyhedelic probably means different things to different people. to me its definitely analog sound (or digital) but with multiple analog processing, brought to excessive settings:

MS-20 run into a Space Echo with high feedback. using guitar pedals. reel to reel. crazy routings, feedback loops.. things like that. also its nice to route these analog chains and give em some spring reverb, or some lofi shitty old digital reverb. i use a dynacord drp16 for this. its a time warp to Berlin in 1972 with that sound.
This is what psychedelic means to me as well, and boy would an MS-20 be great right now.

I say just get a used Andy. It can do most anything and do it weird.
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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by ygg » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:53 pm

skweeegor wrote:I just wanna throw this out there if you're not aware but a lot of psy artists these days have moved to software. Even the big guys like Cosmosis who were all hardware back in the day use mostly vst's and for the price, you could get something much more powerful than in the hardware realm like zebra2. h**l even something older and less complex like vanguard is enough to do 90% of psy sounds. If you already have a decent pc and/or midi controller it might be something to consider. Psytrance also tends to have many, many sounds in one track so workflow wise, it's much faster to work with vst's than constantly bouncing things down to audio. I don't want to turn this into a hardware/software debate, but I remember when I first getting into electronic music I really thought I "HAD" to have the hardware synth to get those pro sounds...but all I really had to do was learn better synthesis. And in psy, synthesis is everything.

I make psytrance myself among another things and it's about the only time I rarely touch hardware because it's just so much simpler to use a vst and sounds just as good.

Well... I just want to tell my view of your statement.

It's because of all these softsynths, viruses and nords that everyone "must" have, that makes psytrance sounds like s**t today, a laughable genre.
Most are also copycats and sound similar to each other, there is seldom any new thinking or new sounds. It sounds digital, clinical, dead, boring, character less, done before etc. in most cases. Who cares about how fast someone works when the end result is kidsplay.

I make psytrance myself too, as ygg audio, hardware only ofc ;), but feel very lonely in that respect today. I don't use 1 softsynt and I bet you anything that my music is fatter more twisted and certainly more psychedelic then your softsynt music. And no... softsynths do not sound as good. Good? yes! As good? Not even close!
Sure, I have a couple of digitals, like fizmo and mwxt, to compliment the analogs. To get _different_ types of timbres. That's the key imo! DIFFERENT!

Sorry for the rant!
Acid Generators: Mg-1, Tb-Devilfish, Fizmo, Minimoog, JP6europa, JP4 I/O, S-100m, Maplin 5600s, Prophet 5, NordWave, Concorde 502, Tr-77, Tr-808midi, Machinedrum, Vermona drmmk2, Re-201, Vt-1, Fireworx, Scrotum, other FX , pedals and hardware.

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by ygg » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:11 pm

clusterchord wrote:v-synth can only dream of Neuron's textures. not on the same level imo. Neuron was a truly unique design. one of my favorite digitals of all time.

i wished so many times they'd re-instate the company and continue developent of new products based on this technology, alas.. not a likely scenario.



anyways, back on topic, i guess psyhedelic probably means different things to different people. to me its definitely analog sound (or digital) but with multiple analog processing, brought to excessive settings:

MS-20 run into a Space Echo with high feedback. using guitar pedals. reel to reel. crazy routings, feedback loops.. things like that. also its nice to route these analog chains and give em some spring reverb, or some lofi shitty old digital reverb. i use a dynacord drp16 for this. its a time warp to Berlin in 1972 with that sound.

but for psy trance ... all you really need is a good VA, a nice mono analog for these lead lines and an Eventide. for example, Nord 2X, SH-2 or System 100 (most beautiful portamento lead for trance i ever heard - how virus n stuff are supposed to sound but never can), and Eclipse or DSP7000. actually, any roland SH is great for this stuff 1/2/9, esp SH-101 which has additional advantage of having syncable arpeggiator and sequencer..

Jupiter6 as a poly option would fare rather well in these styles as well.

Exellent post! Exept the VA part ;)
Just got myself a JP6 with europa and a S-100m D-set to go with the rest :)
I also run things thru multiple FX/tubes/dists/transientdesigners/201/vt-1 and so on. No eventide yet sadly but it's on the list. I do have a fireworx that work very well.
Acid Generators: Mg-1, Tb-Devilfish, Fizmo, Minimoog, JP6europa, JP4 I/O, S-100m, Maplin 5600s, Prophet 5, NordWave, Concorde 502, Tr-77, Tr-808midi, Machinedrum, Vermona drmmk2, Re-201, Vt-1, Fireworx, Scrotum, other FX , pedals and hardware.

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by balma » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:14 pm

ygg wrote:
skweeegor wrote:I make psytrance myself among another things and it's about the only time I rarely touch hardware because it's just so much simpler to use a vst and sounds just as good.
It's because of all these softsynths, viruses and nords that everyone "must" have, that makes psytrance sounds like s**t today, a laughable genre.
Most are also copycats and sound similar to each other, there is seldom any new thinking or new sounds. It sounds digital, clinical, dead, boring, character less, done before etc. in most cases. Who cares about how fast someone works when the end result is kidsplay.

I make psytrance myself too, as ygg audio, hardware only ofc ;), but feel very lonely in that respect today. I don't use 1 softsynt and I bet you anything that my music is fatter more twisted and certainly more psychedelic then your softsynt music. And no... softsynths do not sound as good. Good? yes! As good? Not even close!
Sure, I have a couple of digitals, like fizmo and mwxt, to compliment the analogs. To get _different_ types of timbres. That's the key imo! DIFFERENT!

Sorry for the rant!

Agree on the half. Those Viruses and Nords you mention, require certain programming skills in order to get the juice from them.

The synths are not guilty for those repetitive arppegios that you hear on today's trance music. I blame to lazyness. Some people just layer arppegios and create songs that you don't want to listen a second time. Specially Virus.... Sometimes that I hear a trance track, uuuuuu deja vu! I've heard that before! VIRUS are great VAs, just learn how to use them



But on softsynths, I blame VST's programmers: the architecture of some softwares overused on trance, almost claims you to be LAZY.

Just drag and drop small 4-8 measures of arppegios, copy paste this gastric sound, layer a 4-4 kick, and voila!: I just composed a trance track.

For a more professional laziness, sample a lot of 1/16 fast bass with a big kick, from your artists cds collection, and with small loops of stolen music, create your own track.

And if you are not so lazy, sample some phrases from your favorite sci-fi movies. Almost all the good quotes from sci-fi movies, are already included on a psy trance track.


"certain thoughts, have certain sound..." DUNE (davidlynch-dinodelaurentis)

I've heard that f**k sample of Dune, on at least 5 songs
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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by tom Cadillac » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:29 pm

I agree on the designed for laziness concept. I'm half-way through a psychadelic track and am enjoying the struggle to get that special timbre/sound/warp. I enjoy the creative problem of getting the 'right' sound. What's the point of a 'music by numbers' set up? It's much more enjoyable to work at creating something halfway original maybe?
Yeah and hardware all the way! I just don't find computers creatively stimulating.
Also wanted to say how wonderful the 'psychadelic' tag is. Leaves things very open, but also excludes a lot of musical directions I'm not interested in - 'pop' for instance. To me synths are a core part of the whole opening your senses psychadelic exploration!

Oh and on the subject of sampling movies - lots of room for imagination there. I prefer the cheap 60s s**t, particularly with some "heh look at the hippies!" stuff in it. Also cheap movies tend to go easier on the soundtrack budget. But the samples I'v used on the track I'm working on come from a wierd art movie. There's plenty of scope outside of sci-fi. Sorry to rave on.... but I'm really enjoying the roland sp606 as a sampling tool - it has a lovely feature where the d beam will trigger the sample, which means its potentially excellent used live. I'm trying to turn a guitarist on to it, so he can take up sampling duties in the band. Also its got 50 different effects - to warp the f&%k out of things. yum yum yum!
"On the following day , the sorcery undespairingly continued: I changed my series, chose other sequences, cut other lengths, spliced different progressions, and hoped afresh for a miracle in sound." (Stockhausen)

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by balma » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:19 pm

Problem with trance production, is precisely, that it left its primary intention: being creative and innovative electronic music.

If you copycat an innovative producer, you are screwing him and screwing you.


90% of trance tracks, have no traslation into an acoustic melody. I mean, it's almost impossible to sit on the beach, take a nylon guitar, and play a very known trance track. Unless you try Chicane... je je

they do not have a recognizable frame, that you could whistle while you are driving....

I used to be a big fan of trance 8-10 years ago. Loved to eat an acid and dance 8 hours with no rest, I received 2000 year, dancing like a madman on a trance party.

Now I lost completely the interest, because the trance of 2001, sounds like trance of 2009.

But I'm sure there must be some guys doing something cool outside there. If I find them, I'll return to the trance side of electronic music.

BTW, the FIZMO should be a great option for spacy drone sounds.....
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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by tom Cadillac » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:41 pm

Yeah I agree about the unimaginativeness of current trance stuff. I listened to a lot in 1999. Now Drum and Bass for me - things are always evolving though (?). I'm hoping the wavedrum is going to be an interesting influence
"On the following day , the sorcery undespairingly continued: I changed my series, chose other sequences, cut other lengths, spliced different progressions, and hoped afresh for a miracle in sound." (Stockhausen)

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by skweeegor » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:35 am

ygg wrote:
skweeegor wrote:I just wanna throw this out there if you're not aware but a lot of psy artists these days have moved to software. Even the big guys like Cosmosis who were all hardware back in the day use mostly vst's and for the price, you could get something much more powerful than in the hardware realm like zebra2. h**l even something older and less complex like vanguard is enough to do 90% of psy sounds. If you already have a decent pc and/or midi controller it might be something to consider. Psytrance also tends to have many, many sounds in one track so workflow wise, it's much faster to work with vst's than constantly bouncing things down to audio. I don't want to turn this into a hardware/software debate, but I remember when I first getting into electronic music I really thought I "HAD" to have the hardware synth to get those pro sounds...but all I really had to do was learn better synthesis. And in psy, synthesis is everything.

I make psytrance myself among another things and it's about the only time I rarely touch hardware because it's just so much simpler to use a vst and sounds just as good.

Well... I just want to tell my view of your statement.

It's because of all these softsynths, viruses and nords that everyone "must" have, that makes psytrance sounds like s**t today, a laughable genre.
Most are also copycats and sound similar to each other, there is seldom any new thinking or new sounds. It sounds digital, clinical, dead, boring, character less, done before etc. in most cases. Who cares about how fast someone works when the end result is kidsplay.

I make psytrance myself too, as ygg audio, hardware only ofc ;), but feel very lonely in that respect today. I don't use 1 softsynt and I bet you anything that my music is fatter more twisted and certainly more psychedelic then your softsynt music. And no... softsynths do not sound as good. Good? yes! As good? Not even close!
Sure, I have a couple of digitals, like fizmo and mwxt, to compliment the analogs. To get _different_ types of timbres. That's the key imo! DIFFERENT!

Sorry for the rant!
I got a feeling that the guy was fairly new into this and that if he wasn't aware softsynths are an option. A lot of people want to get the hardware and then they have no clue or intention of programming it and they wonder why their 2000$ virus can't make them awesome psytrance or sound just like deadmau5. To my ears a good vst sounds as good as any va, especially when you have 20 leads in a mix but whatever. My concern isn't the direction of this or that music today. I think it's the drive to just have something out there, regardless of quality, which is watering down music...not the fact that it's easier and more accessible to make. I make my tunes for myself because it gives me personal satisfaction. Maybe 5% of everything I write I'll ever show to anybody. Your music may be fatter and more twisted and psychedelic. Good for you. :lol: I'm still learning and havin' fun. I could plunk down 3000$ on a Voyager tomorrow...but then I still wouldn't know how to effectively use it 100%...so I stick with my soft synths, DCO Juno and MS2000 because I know I have still much to learn just with those.

All I know is some of my favorite releases were done on mostly vst's. h**l Cosmo's brilliant album was done with a soundblaster & some vst's. Maybe I don't have that golden audiophile ear that can pick out an ms20 detuned saw lead from a zebra detuned saw but if the end result pleases me, whatever.

Anyways, I didn't mean to hurt your superiority complex or anything; move along. ;)

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by Hugo76 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:24 am

I agree with skweeegor. If one is new to production and want to get into making psytrance, I don't think a hardware synth - especially a limited vintage synth - would be the right way to go. It would just be very tedious and too frustrating. There are many superb VST's that would be brilliant for psytrance. Reaktor, for instance, has a lot of VA synths you can download from the NI website, that sound absolutely gorgeous. And they offer deep programming possibilities.

If one insist on going the hardware route, I'd say something like the Yamaha Motif XS would probably be the best option, as it allows for whole productions (the Motif ES was used by psytrance pioneers Astral Projection, btw).

Regarding trance in general, I must say it hasn't really interested me much the last few years. The golden years of trance were from about 1992-1997 (give or take a year). In 1991/92 many of the defining classics were released, and in those days it was really creative stuff coming out, also very influental for later psy trance tracks. Listen to for instance Trilithon's massive 'Prayer' from 91.

Some other ESSENTIAL tracks:
The Overlords: Sundown
Blue Planet Corporation: Over Bloody Flood
Eternal Basement: Taking Place In You
Sven Väth: An Accident In Paradise
Astral Projection: PowerGen
Odysee Of Noises: Firedance (Ths Sunrise)
Earth Nation: Alienated
Virtual Symmetry: Information
DJ Misjah & DJ Tim: Access

And of course many, many others. Oh, those were the days... :D

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by danbroad » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:38 am

It's often that in threads like these everyone just posts their favourite synth, so I'll add mine; the Virus.

If you can't program one to get the sound you want however, then it's not the synth for you. That's nothing to do with its potential or your programming skills, either - it's about the workflow.

Regardless of genres - I'm more downtempo than psy - it's about what you can do with your synth, not what your synth can do. So get the synth with an interface you can really work the h**l out of. That might be anything from a JP to a Juno to a CS to a NL to a DX - doesn't matter. As long as you get it, and you can make it sing right, it's the gear for you.
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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by ygg » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:29 pm

skweeegor wrote:
ygg wrote:
skweeegor wrote:I just wanna throw this out there if you're not aware but a lot of psy artists these days have moved to software. Even the big guys like Cosmosis who were all hardware back in the day use mostly vst's and for the price, you could get something much more powerful than in the hardware realm like zebra2. h**l even something older and less complex like vanguard is enough to do 90% of psy sounds. If you already have a decent pc and/or midi controller it might be something to consider. Psytrance also tends to have many, many sounds in one track so workflow wise, it's much faster to work with vst's than constantly bouncing things down to audio. I don't want to turn this into a hardware/software debate, but I remember when I first getting into electronic music I really thought I "HAD" to have the hardware synth to get those pro sounds...but all I really had to do was learn better synthesis. And in psy, synthesis is everything.

I make psytrance myself among another things and it's about the only time I rarely touch hardware because it's just so much simpler to use a vst and sounds just as good.

Well... I just want to tell my view of your statement.



It's because of all these softsynths, viruses and nords that everyone "must" have, that makes psytrance sounds like s**t today, a laughable genre.
Most are also copycats and sound similar to each other, there is seldom any new thinking or new sounds. It sounds digital, clinical, dead, boring, character less, done before etc. in most cases. Who cares about how fast someone works when the end result is kidsplay.

I make psytrance myself too, as ygg audio, hardware only ofc ;), but feel very lonely in that respect today. I don't use 1 softsynt and I bet you anything that my music is fatter more twisted and certainly more psychedelic then your softsynt music. And no... softsynths do not sound as good. Good? yes! As good? Not even close!
Sure, I have a couple of digitals, like fizmo and mwxt, to compliment the analogs. To get _different_ types of timbres. That's the key imo! DIFFERENT!

Sorry for the rant!
I got a feeling that the guy was fairly new into this and that if he wasn't aware softsynths are an option. A lot of people want to get the hardware and then they have no clue or intention of programming it and they wonder why their 2000$ virus can't make them awesome psytrance or sound just like deadmau5. To my ears a good vst sounds as good as any va, especially when you have 20 leads in a mix but whatever. My concern isn't the direction of this or that music today. I think it's the drive to just have something out there, regardless of quality, which is watering down music...not the fact that it's easier and more accessible to make. I make my tunes for myself because it gives me personal satisfaction. Maybe 5% of everything I write I'll ever show to anybody. Your music may be fatter and more twisted and psychedelic. Good for you. :lol: I'm still learning and havin' fun. I could plunk down 3000$ on a Voyager tomorrow...but then I still wouldn't know how to effectively use it 100%...so I stick with my soft synths, DCO Juno and MS2000 because I know I have still much to learn just with those.

All I know is some of my favorite releases were done on mostly vst's. h**l Cosmo's brilliant album was done with a soundblaster & some vst's. Maybe I don't have that golden audiophile ear that can pick out an ms20 detuned saw lead from a zebra detuned saw but if the end result pleases me, whatever.

Anyways, I didn't mean to hurt your superiority complex or anything; move along. ;)

I move along when I feel it's time to move along :)
I don't have a superiority complex so it didn't hurt. What I oppose is all the nocluenoobs promoting "all you need for psytrance is virus, nord,zebra,vanguard" that's POLLUTING forums all over. End result is thousands of people with the same gear doing the same music genre, sounding close to the same. How interesting!! It's the reason I'm about to abandon the genre I loved the most. We were having warehouse parties here in Sweden from the late 80s. The music has evolved ever since, exploding into different subgenres and styles. But the last 5-7 years of psy has been a terrible stalemate. This is just my opinion and I'm sure there are others that feel the psy scene rocks and is great.
As I said sorry for the rant. It was maybe a bit strong and unauthorized.
I did not at any point say or mean that I make better music then you, just that analogs generally make a fatter sound that has a fuller frequency spectrum then software and VAs. There is more grit, dirt and raw power instead of sterile cleaness (which is great and needed too, if mixed together well).

What is the difference of a softsynth and a voyager? It's rather the softsynths of today that are more complicated and advanced then a voyager. If you know your way around soft's you should have little problem with a voyager, just a fatter sound ;) They all have osc, filter, env, amp, lfo like all other synths, unless FM or so.
If you know one you pretty much know them all.
Acid Generators: Mg-1, Tb-Devilfish, Fizmo, Minimoog, JP6europa, JP4 I/O, S-100m, Maplin 5600s, Prophet 5, NordWave, Concorde 502, Tr-77, Tr-808midi, Machinedrum, Vermona drmmk2, Re-201, Vt-1, Fireworx, Scrotum, other FX , pedals and hardware.

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by ygg » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:55 pm

balma wrote:Problem with trance production, is precisely, that it left its primary intention: being creative and innovative electronic music.

If you copycat an innovative producer, you are screwing him and screwing you.


90% of trance tracks, have no traslation into an acoustic melody. I mean, it's almost impossible to sit on the beach, take a nylon guitar, and play a very known trance track. Unless you try Chicane... je je

they do not have a recognizable frame, that you could whistle while you are driving....

I used to be a big fan of trance 8-10 years ago. Loved to eat an acid and dance 8 hours with no rest, I received 2000 year, dancing like a madman on a trance party.

Now I lost completely the interest, because the trance of 2001, sounds like trance of 2009.



But I'm sure there must be some guys doing something cool outside there. If I find them, I'll return to the trance side of electronic music.

BTW, the FIZMO should be a great option for spacy drone sounds.....

I feel the same way you describe. Been there done that, but I still wish the genre would evolve a bit to grab my interest and attension again, but it seems it won't or I'll be to old. And evolving is NOT to raise the bpm to the max.
There is cool music still out there, but with everyone and his dog making psy nowadays it's certainly not easy to find the gems.

You'll love the fizmo!! Lovely piece, an amazingly organic and warm digital.
Grats!

Oh, and there should be bounty money on copycats.
Acid Generators: Mg-1, Tb-Devilfish, Fizmo, Minimoog, JP6europa, JP4 I/O, S-100m, Maplin 5600s, Prophet 5, NordWave, Concorde 502, Tr-77, Tr-808midi, Machinedrum, Vermona drmmk2, Re-201, Vt-1, Fireworx, Scrotum, other FX , pedals and hardware.

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by skweeegor » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:53 pm

ygg wrote: I move along when I feel it's time to move along :)
I don't have a superiority complex so it didn't hurt. What I oppose is all the nocluenoobs promoting "all you need for psytrance is virus, nord,zebra,vanguard" that's POLLUTING forums all over. End result is thousands of people with the same gear doing the same music genre, sounding close to the same. How interesting!! It's the reason I'm about to abandon the genre I loved the most. We were having warehouse parties here in Sweden from the late 80s. The music has evolved ever since, exploding into different subgenres and styles. But the last 5-7 years of psy has been a terrible stalemate. This is just my opinion and I'm sure there are others that feel the psy scene rocks and is great.
As I said sorry for the rant. It was maybe a bit strong and unauthorized.
I did not at any point say or mean that I make better music then you, just that analogs generally make a fatter sound that has a fuller frequency spectrum then software and VAs. There is more grit, dirt and raw power instead of sterile cleaness (which is great and needed too, if mixed together well).

What is the difference of a softsynth and a voyager? It's rather the softsynths of today that are more complicated and advanced then a voyager. If you know your way around soft's you should have little problem with a voyager, just a fatter sound ;) They all have osc, filter, env, amp, lfo like all other synths, unless FM or so.
If you know one you pretty much know them all.
Obviously you've been a part of the scene for a while so I can see you have a more personal connection than I do as well as a more intimate understanding of the history. I only got into psy a few years ago and I'm not too concerned about the "scene" or anything, as I said, I make music for fun. Also when I hear a track from 2003, I'm often only listening to it for the first time in 2009 so I don't have that same sense of history or a sense of how stale you say psy has become.

I can't disagree with you that analogs are fatter sounding...I think anyone on this site to disagree with that would be nuts. I just got the vibe that this guy would be satisfied with some soft synths...especially if he's still learning. I must admit you've kind of made me re-evaluate the way I make psy. I learned as most did early on, from forums, and I guess I drank the "vst" kool aid myself.

BTW, I'm curious to hear your stuff as I think I remember a post on isratrance about it...and most people seemed impressed. Got a track I can hear?

As for the Voyager...ok, so maybe it's that I don't have 2-3k lying around at the moment. Don't crush the illusion that I'm not "ready" for it yet. :P One day..

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Re: Psychedelic hardsynth

Post by etnie12 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:59 pm

ok guy lets say something

ive been in the electronic dance music for about 12 years and i must totally disagree with the fact that the trance
production did'nt evolve in any way. First the think you got to consider with psytrance ; its DANCE music, so people
who go in a rave for DANCING wanna here a 4-4 based drums lines...may be its humanity lazynness...but anyway majority of people feel more confortable dancing on simplicity because they can create they own world....leaving more place for the audience. Also i dunno if you guys know a lot about psy called twillight and psytek of to today, but its even not close to your kind of oldschool trance production....may be you could say its always the same pattern and its always predictible, but in this way i could say that of any genre of music, in the meaning that everythings have pattern into it, its just the way your perceive it. When i listen to some of the top quality psy of today, even if the bass and drums patterns arre predicible, its impossible for me to tell there is not creativity and talent into it. TAke a look your self and judge it.






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