Which Synth matches this description?

A forum for discussing the pros & cons of buying a particular synth and for advice on buying synthesizers.
dhollmusik
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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by dhollmusik » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 am

samuraipizzacat29 wrote:occasionally.....


if you want something from the states, I'm sure someone around here can do you the favor of getting it to you. I know i would.

ye gods! $1000 for the keyboard version?? Wow...it really goes to show how much difference geographical-origin makes. The German synths are a lot cheaper for us than they are for you, but American synths exactly the other way around.

Of course...this makes perfect sense, but I didn't quite fully appreciate it before.

Thanks for the post offer but it's too risky for me to buy an expensive analogue synth from USA. At least from Ukraine or Russia I know I would have a feasible service option within the first few months...not so feasible if the synth came from USA.

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by ninja6485 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:44 am

dhollmusik wrote:If you have something counter to say about that, then you have to describe it with a little more eloquence, otherwise no one will understand what you mean.


Good luck.
;)

dhollmusik wrote:how are you trying to save me money??
well, if you simply want to buy a synth, then you're going to have the available options. if you're looking for a specific sound, you would technically be saving money if you learned how to program that sound on the gear you already have considering wouldn't need to buy anything. but again, i'm not commanding you to do anything, i'm simply suggesting that qualities your looking to purchase in a synth may be found for free in the synths you already have. granted you may just want another physical set of keys, which is fine - hense: if you simply want to buy a synth, then you will have the available options. this thread aparantly changed from being about 'are there any small vco polys for $500,'' to 'walk me through my next purchase.' buy the prophet 600, it rules.
dhollmusik wrote:He makes his own patches, saves them, then plays them using very competent keyboard skills.
the patch you design is not effected by saving or not saving it, thus saving patches is irrelevent to patch design. playing ability is also irrelevent to patch design: if jexus makes me a patch it's just as good of a drone when i'm playing it as it would be if the king of england played it. you're speculative represantation of what jexus does is moot in reference to this conversation, if not totally in error considering there are no limiting factors preventing him from doing things like not saving patches, or playing them unskilfully. the fact that you intend this ad hoc hogwash to be a refutation of my earlier point is laughable at best.
dhollmusik wrote:I evolve a sound, and play rather less competently but instead focus on the slow journey the sound is making.
your keypluck-competency is unrelated to the issue at hand. what you're doing when you "evolve a sound" and "focus on the slow journey the sound is making" is designing and tweaking a patch. i intend to suggest that you can set yourself up in such a way that you can create more movement in oscilators, more thickness and variation is sound with simple tweaks then may be immediately aparant on synths featuring digital construction. since this conversation has been framed from the begining in the vein of "what can i get for $500," it's relavant and pertinant to this discussion to suggest alternative methods of sound design in order to more closely meet the given perameters. i never would have thought to suggest something like a prophet 600 because that's nowhere near $500...

in addition, knowing you enjoy playing in this way leads me to believe even more so that vco's may not be the main thing of importance when choosing your synth, though not unimportant. actually, i use my juno 60 similarly to how you're describing your methods. the hold button holds notes or chords that you play, and although it's not the deepest synth, it's layout and filter are a lot of fun. it would be my go to synth for drones, aside from a good reverb unit :idea: , not becuase of it's internal componants, but because of how it feels, and how it sounds when you play it and tweak stuff.
dhollmusik wrote:There's no patches being called up, just keys being held down with CD's while the free hands turn knobs, wheels, sliders and perhaps plays a simple slow melody with one free hand.
recalling patch or not does not effect the design of the patch, which if better can sound like the qualities you seek more so then if worse regardless of synth. what you edit has a lot to do with patch design, but if you set it up the right way you can do a lot more with less. consider the jx-8p: i had no idea why people refered to it as the "String machine" until i looked up string patches on sound on sound. now i adjust the oscilators slightly apart, add a bit of modulation to one, set the lfo to random, get the chorus working, etc - and it's like a different synth. the difference in my perception of it and what it could do was in my knowledge of it, and if i were to buy another synth to do that same thing only to realize i could have done it with what i had before, i would have wished someone steped in and said "hey, how about you learn to program your s**t before you drop a bunch of cash on some new gear and now have to sell it off." and again, the main reason why i'm bringing this up is because this discussion is framed under the budget umbrella.
dhollmusik wrote:The parameters of this search have been clearly defined in the first post.
what is this, opposite day? :facepalm: when there's a 2 page discussion about your budget details, you're original post might be a little unclear...

dhollmusik wrote:Are you trolling?
:roll: usually acusations such as this following questions brought up by more than one person about a specific area of ambiguity directly related to important perameters of the original post are attempts to 'bail out a sinking ship' so to speak by changing the subject. i still have no idea what your budget is, but i at least know it's not 500 of my nation's credits if you're considering the prophet 600! :dontknow: :lol:
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:40 am

dhollmusik wrote:Are you trolling?
Well might we ask the same of you. If you go online asking people's advice with something it's considered polite not insult them when they give you that advice. Conversely if you think you already know everything about the subject then why are you asking people's advice?

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by dhollmusik » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:52 pm

You know, guys...the other contributors to this thread have easily understood the discussion and have advanced the topic greatly.

Internet forums are notoriously imperfect, which means there are always one or two who insist on focussing the discussion on matters which are either largely irrelevant, totally irrelevant or focus on attempting to show the OP the error of his ways, regardless how specific the OP has been.

If anyone wishes to discuss the topic in the manner meatballfulton, Scories, edfunction and samuraipizzacat29 have contributed then please do, for these members have added much food for thought to my search. Even Psy_Free's contribution was good, because he highlighted a semantic error of mine, which I acknowledged. The point is he hasn't been back to repeat the same thing over and over again.

But if you want to focus on derailing this very specific thread by repeatedly claiming things like:

"you don't need that, just learn how to program or get a VA"

or obsessing over things like:

"but you said 500 of any credits, but how are you supposed to buy a synth for 500 yen?"

then please don't bother contributing. I won't be responding to such posts anymore.

Instead attempt to redeem yourselves by helping this guy, who has just started a very similar thread but so far only has the one reply:

http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/viewt ... 19&t=63152

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by samuraipizzacat29 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:38 pm

I love this forum, its like having a hot girlfriend that's a total b. :)

More on the prophet 08 - it seems as if they're dropping in price because poly evolver and even mek are so lusted after. Or maybe its just cuz a ton of people bought prophet 08s and now are looking to sell. In either case, supply/demand yada yada.

I like sending synths across borders, if only because they're worth more to you guys. In the last six months I've sold two to australia, one to norway, one to the uk, one to russia, and bought from japan. :) its risky, but I don't view it as any more risky than buying from a felloww countryman. It'll just cost more to ship back if its screwwed up, but you should have bought it cheaper than you could locally anyway, right? Risk/rewward is the hot girlfriend of supply/demand. Fortunately, I've found she's NOT a total b. I'm done with the ot now.

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by ninja6485 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:35 pm

so you have nothing to say to my previous post, except that pizza and the others get gold stars, psy free gets a silver star, and stabby and i get detention...

dhollmusik wrote:Internet forums are notoriously imperfect
...wait, you mean they don't just tell you what you want to hear?
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:15 pm

dhollmusik wrote:or obsessing over things like:

"but you said 500 of any credits, but how are you supposed to buy a synth for 500 yen?"

then please don't bother contributing. I won't be responding to such posts anymore.
Stop being a prima donna, I said that 500 dollars was different to 500 euro, and that you would have got more accurate responses in the first place if you had just said where you were and what your budget was. The fact that you say Perfourmers are 500 euro in Berlin when they're US$1000+ in the States bears that out. Likewise Tetras which are made in the US and have to be shipped to the EU are relatively expensive in the EU compared to things built there.

The yen thing was to highlight an extreme case, it wasn't my main point. I'm sure you realised that, don't try to twist my words.

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by balma » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:39 pm

I can buy two lolipops with 500 colones in Costa Rica. Yumi!

Poly can be cheated on a mono synth like the Evolver, right? It has 4 voices per patch (two analog + two waveforms) and they can be splited through the stereo outputs I think so...
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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by dhollmusik » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:31 pm

samuraipizzacat29 wrote: More on the prophet 08 - it seems as if they're dropping in price because poly evolver and even mek are so lusted after. .
Which one is "mek"? Is it the DSI Mono Evolver Keyboard?

I've just been checking out Germany prices of the Prophet 08 rack, and I see some go for €700-€800, and others with the letters PE go for €1000-€1100. Does PE just mean better knobs or are there more functions?

Still, I wasn't aware that an original Prophet 08 could be had for around €700...I would consider this now...it might even jump the queue right into first place because of the 8 voices.

Very interesting! (strokes beard)...

balma wrote: Poly can be cheated on a mono synth like the Evolver, right? It has 4 voices per patch (two analog + two waveforms) and they can be splited through the stereo outputs I think so...
You mean this one?

http://www.vintagesynth.com/dsi/evo.php

http://www.vintagesynth.com/dsi/evok.php

I wonder if your little trick would enable live chord-playing?

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by Plumpudding » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:40 am

I guess PE(K) stands for Poly Evolver(w/keys 4 voices), mek stands for Mono Evolver(w/keys). Anyway, you're acting like a j**k. Get a Yamaha PSR-7, a reverb pedal and evolve away.
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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by dhollmusik » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:32 am

Plumpudding wrote:you're acting like a j**k. Get a Yamaha PSR-7, a reverb pedal and evolve away.
Right...you know, a forum is only as good as its community. You've just added to the uselessness and condescension gene pool. If most of your contributions are as poor as that, and there are more of you out there, then this forum will die. I've already had to witness an actual moderator troll on the thread of a new member...that is not a good sign of a forum's health.

Which is a shame because I've also seen some very good contributions from others, plus the database and the sub-forum layout itself is great.

Anyway, I'm not really replying to you, just writing this for the benefit of the non-posting readers, who I hope won't be put off by the rank negativity some of you have here.

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by samuraipizzacat29 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:48 am

MEK = Mono Evolver Keyboard = $850 USD. Price only fluctuates on them about 10% either way. PE (Potentiometer Edition) is worth about $200 more, to some. PE meaning Potentiomer Edition is common to all dave smith products because they used a bad encoder on a number of products that pissed people off, so they made a pot edition. The pros of the pots are they're more reliable, and a full turn = a full turn on every single parameter. The big con (why I don't like them) are that when you turn a knob, it jumps to that position (bad for filter sweeps), so that's why dsi and many other synth manufacturers prefer encoders, just dsi got a bad batch and old school synth heads got turned off to them. Encoder editions are generally worth about 10% less, but I'd buy a bottle of deoxit straight away, and expect to have to crack the synth open once a year (no big deal imho).

And, what the other posted said above about evolver patches is true of the Poly Evolver. I'm pretty sure that's the wet dream of every synth programmer I know...... It's also worth about $2300 (1500 gbp? idk) With the poly evolver you can have a four voice polysynth with each patch having two DCO's, and two wavetable oscs (digital has fm options) that that go through Digitally controlled analog filter and VCA's. The mono evolver is incredibly useful on its own, but the poly evolver is a MONSTER. Def worth checking out, and if you're not sure about the sound, you should buy a mono evolver desktop so you can hear where evolver lovers come from when they go insane over Poly Evolver. That's why prophet 08 prices are slightly dropping is because even though they're multi-timbral and hugely useful, the poly evolver is a bit more "unnatural" sounding. I know that sounds stupid because all (most) synths are designed to sound unnatural, but if you've had an evolver, you know what I mean :)

just to reiterate - evolver dt is a mono-synth and therefore doesn't fit into your requirements.... Poly Evolver would, but would be even more outrageous and difficult for you to find in the uk. Prophet 08 still sounds best to me.... :)

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by ninja6485 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:50 am

:lol: pizza gets another gold star, and plumpudding joins us in detention.
dhollmusik wrote:a forum is only as good as its community
which is why you probably won't stay part of it for long ;)
dhollmusik wrote:If most of your contributions are as poor as that, and there are more of you out there, then this forum will die
he's refering to dwarfs i'm sure.
dhollmusik wrote:that is not a good sign of a forum's health.
you've been here a week. why don't you tell us more about the forum's health? :| i miss john tron.
dhollmusik wrote:I've already had to witness an actual moderator troll on the thread of a new member...
you know damn well no one's trolling you, you just think you're being cute by getting under our skin. ironically, stabby happens to be a huge part of the reason we don't have people "trolling" us. show some respect, and lose this f**k victim of rank negativity bullshit. i guarantee if you push the issue this thread will be locked. i can't warn you, since i'm not a moderator, but speaking even from the vastly limited experience i've had here compared to some of the people "trolling you," i can see it comming.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by dhollmusik » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:57 am

Always happy to see a post from you, Samurai warrior :hi: at least I'll know we can discuss the issues at hand.

samuraipizzacat29 wrote:PE (Potentiometer Edition) is worth about $200 more, to some. PE meaning Potentiomer Edition is common to all dave smith products because they used a bad encoder on a number of products that pissed people off, so they made a pot edition. The pros of the pots are they're more reliable, and a full turn = a full turn on every single parameter. The big con (why I don't like them) are that when you turn a knob, it jumps to that position (bad for filter sweeps), so that's why dsi and many other synth manufacturers prefer encoders, just dsi got a bad batch and old school synth heads got turned off to them. Encoder editions are generally worth about 10% less, but I'd buy a bottle of deoxit straight away, and expect to have to crack the synth open once a year (no big deal imho).
Thanks for explaining that, I probably wouldn't mind the non-PE versions then.

samuraipizzacat29 wrote:...the poly evolver is a MONSTER. Def worth checking out, and if you're not sure about the sound, you should buy a mono evolver desktop so you can hear where evolver lovers come from when they go insane over Poly Evolver. That's why prophet 08 prices are slightly dropping is because even though they're multi-timbral and hugely useful, the poly evolver is a bit more "unnatural" sounding. I know that sounds stupid because all (most) synths are designed to sound unnatural, but if you've had an evolver, you know what I mean :)

just to reiterate - evolver dt is a mono-synth and therefore doesn't fit into your requirements.... Poly Evolver would, but would be even more outrageous and difficult for you to find in the uk. Prophet 08 still sounds best to me.... :)
I've actually just bought a new synth, namely the Doepfer Dark Energy. I was missing a monosynth since selling my MS-404 and decided to stay faithful to Doepfer as I really liked the sound of the 404, but wanted the more square physical shape, darker sound and modulation possibilites of the Dark Energy. The DSI Mono-Evolver Desktop was the one of the alternatives I could have got at a similar price. Both synths sound excellent and I think either is a good choice for anyone.

Regarding my poly-search, I'm encouraged by the dropping price of the Prophet 08 rack...8-voice poly is a big advantage, and it's in rack form with tons of knobs.

Here is the revised shortlist where this time I'll just comment on the negatives in an attempt to filter them out:


- Vermona Perfourmer (the Dark Energy now serves as my VCO-audio input option, which has now slightly weakened the Perfourmer's position. Whether the Perfourmer can sound 'thick' also remains up for debate)
- DSI Tetra (DCO's. Reports of fiddly interface. And if the Prophet 08 can be had for only €200 more, then the Tetra is theoretically out)
- MKS-50 + PG-300 (DCO's. The two devices put me off a little, plus a third for midi keyboard)
- Sequential Circuits Prophet 600 (do I really want yet another full-size keyboard, no matter how good the synth?)
- Akai VX600 (DCO's. The interface might well be a little unfriendly, but this is unconfirmed...it does lack generous knobs & sliders, tho')
- DSI Prophet 08 (DCO's and price the most expensive of all the options. Since this became an option I've been listening to audio demos, and I'm not actually that taken with what I'm hearing. It sounds quite samey and dull. Of course, this may just be because the demos are samey and dull, not the synth, but I do get the feeling that regardless of patch or sequence, the Prophet 08 has a very recognisable base-sound and I'm not sure I'm too excited by it.)

On that last point, it's interesting that according to Youtube and Soundcloud audio demos I like the sound I'm hearing from the Tetra and mono-Evolver, but not the sound from the Prophet 08. Does this ring true with anyone else or is it a case of relying too much on online audio?


Ok, well let's get on with it. So by focussing on the negatives, I can discount the synths where I have reservations. First off: their sound. So that means Perfourmer and Prophet 08 byebye. The next negative to focus on would be interface. This one is tricky to judge without using them myself, but I have heard more than a few reports complaining about the Tetra's interface...so this one is out. The next matter to dismiss the synth would be logistics. What I mean by that is the MKS option would require 3 devices before being ready to play (MKS-50, PG-300 + midi keyboard) while the Akai and P-600 only require themselves. So MKS is out.

So my search odyssey is left with only two options:

- Sequential Circuits Prophet 600 (do I really want yet another full-size keyboard, no matter how good the synth?)
- Akai VX600 (DCO's. The interface might well be a little unfriendly, but this is unconfirmed...it does lack generous knobs & sliders, tho')

I love the chunky sound of the Akai, and it's size is perfect. But looking at high-res images it is clear there will be a lot of menu-gazing and button-pushing and alpha-dialing. This is a big negative. Although maybe a Doepfer Pocket Dial can help here...would it be compatible? I'm sure the BCR2000 would be, but the Pocket Dial is nice and small.

The only negative of the P-600 is its size...

Prophet 600 wins!

It matches everything in my original description except size. I also really like its sound based on the audio demos I've been hearing. It's price is right near the absolute maximum I wanted to spend, but is still ok.

Looks like if I want to play live I will have to lug two full-size keyboards containing heavy vintage analogue poly goodness :lol:

Ah well...it's good for my fitness levels...


This thread has been fun...and well worth it despite the spoilsports :mrgreen:
Last edited by dhollmusik on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Which Synth matches this description?

Post by dhollmusik » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:02 am

ninja6485 wrote:show some respect, and lose this f**k victim of rank negativity bullshit. i guarantee if you push the issue this thread will be locked.
With aggressive language like that you are trying to force a confrontation.

This thread shouldn't be locked but your post should be deleted, perhaps with a warning that you should mind your language. There is a civilised way you can use swearing, you need to learn this.

I won't report your post, but someone else might.

I will also not reply to your posts, as they are always off-topic and confrontational. This thread would be better off if you just ignored it.

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