SHIOITOR

For computer based music makers. Discussions about plug-ins and stand alone computer synth gear.
edfunction
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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by edfunction » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:46 am

raiven:

I don't really follow your arguments, the dictionary quotes seem to counter what you are trying to say.

Many people here have experience, are professionals and have compared software emulations with their real counterparts. Regardless of how successful we think the emulations are, the two things (real, virtual) are different in many ways.

Some find the "real" way better, some don't. That's cool. You would probably have more people interested in your point of view and having a more fruitful discussion if you weren't making silly pointed remarks and generally acting like a douche.

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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by Raiven » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:59 pm

edfunction wrote:raiven:

I don't really follow your arguments, the dictionary quotes seem to counter what you are trying to say.

Many people here have experience, are professionals and have compared software emulations with their real counterparts. Regardless of how successful we think the emulations are, the two things (real, virtual) are different in many ways.

Some find the "real" way better, some don't. That's cool. You would probably have more people interested in your point of view and having a more fruitful discussion if you weren't making silly pointed remarks and generally acting like a douche.
Anything not agreeable with the analog hype at VSE makes a person a douche. I made my point to the other posters. I think it's funny that I continue to have these problems here after all these years and hardly so much so at other forums.

VSE isn't just for the analog worshippers. Get over it.
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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by cartesia » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:31 pm

All you need to do is give us some evidence..

Just give us an audio demo of shioitor, tell us what settings were used and we'll find someone with an SH-101 to test it.

edfunction
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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by edfunction » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:35 pm

Raiven wrote: Anything not agreeable with the analog hype at VSE makes a person a douche. I made my point to the other posters. I think it's funny that I continue to have these problems here after all these years and hardly so much so at other forums.

VSE isn't just for the analog worshippers. Get over it.
That's also a pretty weak argument.
I am using a combination of analog and digital gear (more digital at the moment), so I don't consider myself an analog purist by any means. Personally I was reacting to some VST hype. I thought I was clear in my post that I think emulations are a positive thing and provide affordable, and in some cases more flexible or convenient, reproductions of classic instruments that are for many "close enough".
I would never consider buying a cs-80 but I would use an emulation, even if it's not exactly the same. I just don't have enough money to justify it. I think the 101 is interesting because it can still be found (relatively) cheaply if you look around, of course the software is going to be cheaper and allow for multiple instances etc. I will check it when it comes out...

So far software emulations haven't completely replaced the machines that they emulate. At least not for everyone. I don't believe it's because we are luddites or trying to keep the value of our synths or stupid or whatever. For me it has less to do with analog vs digital but more to do with the way in which these instruments are played. I don't like playing synths on the screen and so far generic controllers don't fill the gap for me. I'd be excited if D16 would release an inexpensive controller that looks and feels and functions like a 909 or an 808 to accompany the software. That would bring things closer.

People are reacting to your attitude mostly. Or at least I am. You are feigning surprise that the "analog worshippers" are getting riled up when your posts seem to be baiting this kind of reaction. Either you're deliberately stirring or you're not thinking about what you post. That's annoying.
I take your point that the emulations sound good and that many people won't notice or care. I just feel that there is more to it than that.

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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by matia » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:53 pm

and i would really like to also affirm the fact that many people within the industry (meaning artists that get paid for running 303's, 101's, 808's, jupiter 8's ...) still very much use analogs and do so for a myriad of reasons, the first and foremost being sound and interface. if it's what they know and gets them the results they want than that's all they care about ... sometimes even if something is aurally better. should have seen pan sonic's faces when we wanted to give them a mixwizard instead of their behringer mixer.

but then again, what do i know? apparently i hate technology for preferring a certain way of working and a certain sound. i'll just forget about all the work i did for M.I.A. that was a combination of both software and hardware or the many many times where reason saved my a*s and got me paid as much as doing full on sessions on nothing but modular synths ...


f**k, hate reacting to this online s**t but come on man ... it's all good but let's be objective & stay away from blanket statements and generalizations.

-matia

edfunction
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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by edfunction » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:05 pm

matia wrote: should have seen pan sonic's faces when we wanted to give them a mixwizard instead of their behringer mixer.

-matia
:D

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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by SWAN » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:27 pm

edfunction wrote:raiven:

I don't really follow your arguments, the dictionary quotes seem to counter what you are trying to say.

Many people here have experience, are professionals and have compared software emulations with their real counterparts. Regardless of how successful we think the emulations are, the two things (real, virtual) are different in many ways.

Some find the "real" way better, some don't. That's cool. You would probably have more people interested in your point of view and having a more fruitful discussion if you weren't making silly pointed remarks and generally acting like a douche.
plus one.

Ive compared loads of softies to analogue hardware and trust my decision - as have many around here who also know their stuff.

Softsynths are great for certain styles - but not for others. They are far more versatile than analogue hardware - but they have a basic sound that is different from analogue hardware. To some people that matters - others it doesnt.
Many of the emulations are very impressive and I am surprised by the D16 stuff - no doubt its good. However - for those producers that uses 909s or 808s as the backbone of their productions - I dont see them selling their 'relics' to make up space...

A analogue polysynth is a big part of my sound - and whilst I found the OP-x to be one of the best softsynth emulations out there and used it for a while - it doesnt own a mix like my OB-8 does. The OP-x does not have the liveliness my OB-8 does, plus it is also much cleaner and has a harder sterile quality to the sound. They sure sound alike - but for me there is a difference. Its the difference that makes the difference.

As for the difference between the various Moog emulations and my Source - dont even get me started on that - The Source is ALIVE! Sometimes he feels like an acoustic instrument to play....A moog emulation is like playing a robot. Which is what it is - an algorithm.

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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by b3groover » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:25 pm

As has been stated several times over, the biggest drawback to software emulators is not the actual sound of the plug-in. They've gotten very good, sometimes remarkably good. The drawback is the interface.

I'm coming from a different musical place than many here in that I play in a jazz trio consisting of organ, guitar, and drums. The classic Jimmy Smith trio format. But I've experienced the same sort of emotional reactions when I ditched my 1958 B3 (all 400 lbs of it) in favor of the new digital Hammond-Suzuki XK3 system. In fact, I've had fanboys at gigs downright insult me about using it. Of course this is before they actually hear it.

Originally I intended to use the digital emulated organ only for gigs, since hauling a 400lbs B3 is not very practical and in fact I had to have back surgery in late 2006 due to moving the damn thing around for almost 10 years. But I now record with it because it sounds so good. Does it sound EXACTLY like my 1958 B3? No, but it is damn close (especially after I tweaked it) and in a mix going through a real Leslie speaker you cannot tell the difference. I received several comments on how nice "the real B3 sounded" on our last record from people who obviously didn't read the liner notes where it states that I'm using the XK3. :)

But anyway, the biggest reason I decided to make the switch was because they finally replicated the actual interface of the B3 with the XK3. It is set up like a B3... not totally indentical but close enough so you could sit down and start playing without messing around in menus or fiddling with anything or having to re-learn how to play due to the controls all being in different places. And it is that interface that allows me to play it like a real B3 and that's why the emulation is so convincing.

Until softsynths have an actual ergonomic interface, I think they will (for the most part) remain poor substitutes for the real thing, especially when it comes to emulating classic synthesizers. I don't want to play a Hammond clone that has virtual drawbars on a screen or little tiny buttons. I want real drawbars I can grab and change on the fly, real pedals, a real chorus/vibrato knob, etc. The same goes for an emulation of a vintage synth. The goal should be as few comprises as possible. Of course this blows one of the major attractions of a softsynth out of the water, and that is the price. Start emulating the actual interface and the cost is going to go up dramatically.

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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by shaft9000 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:12 am

Raiven, your argument is obsolete.
i'm sure it's a great VSTi ....just like Golden makes excellent acrylic paint that looks and feels like oil - but alas is not oil.

There's nothing to prove, because they're two different things. Digital softsynth is not an analog hardware synth. There is not a snowball's chance in h**l that the softsynth going through modern converters is going to 100% replace the sound of a 25 yr old analog synth. Not to my ears, anyway.
Others are free to feel differently.

but imho it is only about Complementary things!
God (or whatever higher power) made 'em this way, and reality will not change just because you want it too. And we're all better off because we have so much to choose from.

carry on....
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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by tallowwaters » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:40 am

Raiven wrote:
Your the douche.
Whoa, touche sir!!!
Perhaps someone should refer you to the case of rubber and glue? Maybe the difference between a possessive pronoun and a contraction too.

Anyhow, I can't tell that any mod is trying to quash this argument (I received a complaint), so allow me to step in and tell you goons that you need to be respectful of other folk's opinions. Failing that, perhaps it is best if you left the topic to horses for courses instead of handbags at 5 paces. Consider that a warning for everybody fanning the flames and the name calling.


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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by Raiven » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:12 am

shaft9000 wrote:Raiven, your argument is obsolete.
i'm sure it's a great VSTi ....just like Golden makes excellent acrylic paint that looks and feels like oil - but alas is not oil.

There's nothing to prove, because they're two different things. Digital softsynth is not an analog hardware synth. There is not a snowball's chance in h**l that the softsynth going through modern converters is going to 100% replace the sound of a 25 yr old analog synth. Not to my ears, anyway.
Others are free to feel differently.

but imho it is only about Complementary things!
God (or whatever higher power) made 'em this way, and reality will not change just because you want it too. And we're all better off because we have so much to choose from.

carry on....
Old Analogs are obsolete. You only keep them around to stroke your ego. In the context of songs nobody cares about this minute difference you claim to hear. Get over yourself.
Korg M3 (Fully Loaded), Blofeld Keyboard, MPC 2500 LE, (Monomachine), Logic Studio 8, Live 6, FM8, Absynth 4, Predator, Alpha3, Korg Legacy Collection, (Shioitor), Drumazon, Nepheton, Stylus RMX

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Raiven
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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by Raiven » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:21 am

tallowwaters wrote:
Raiven wrote:
Your the douche.
Whoa, touche sir!!!
Perhaps someone should refer you to the case of rubber and glue? Maybe the difference between a possessive pronoun and a contraction too.
Perhaps you should consider a neutral stance before insulting one of the people in this argument, moderator.

This joint is absolutely ripe.
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Re: SHIOITOR

Post by Stab Frenzy » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:54 am

Raiven wrote:Perhaps you should consider a neutral stance before insulting one of the people in this argument, moderator.

This joint is absolutely ripe.
If you were paying attention you'd notice he was insulting all of the people having this silly argument. And for good reason too, this is the dumbest thread I've ever seen.

It turns out that there are people here with differing opinions, and name-calling isn't going to convince anyone to change their mind. There really isn't any reason for this thread to continue in my opinion, which is why it's getting padlocked.

Locked