Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software?

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How do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software?

Poll ended at Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:56 am

It hurts the software developers and deprives them of hard earned cash. so, NO. I purchase it legitimately.
17
61%
FREE SOFTWARE!?!?! I'm IN!
1
4%
I don't like pirating things, but I do because I simply don't realistically have the money to purchase software.
1
4%
I do like pirating software, as it is wayyy overpriced and putting a price on self-expression is morally wrong.
0
No votes
I don't use software period, I'M OLD SKOOL!
1
4%
I use freeware.
0
No votes
I do like pirating software because it gives me a chance to fully evaluate it before deciding whether or not to purchase it
8
29%
 
Total votes: 28

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by ninja6485 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:10 pm

Look, pirating software is a catalyst that triggers many people to start making music as a hobby. It's not the only catalyst, but it is an important one. As the number of people that enjoy the hobby increases, so too does the potential costumer base for a software company. This is good, because even if a small percent of the potential costumer base actualizes into paying costumers, with such a large group of potential costumers, this translates to increased sales AND does a good deal of the marketing work which would otherwise cost money. Profit comes from playing a numbers game. Sometimes you have to sew ten seeds for one to grow, but if the conditions that kill the other 9 seeds yields you thousands of seeds to sew in the first place, it makes the loss worth it.

It's like smoking: no one walks into a gas station one day and thinks, "I think I'll start smoking!" The habit forms out of conditions that support being a smoker: their friends smoke/ pass them one semi regularly, maybe it's an image thing, who knows. Either way, first you make a smoker, then the smoker has a need for the product, then the smoker seeks out the product on their own.

It's like this with DAWs. Cracked DAWs let the habit form in safe and easy way. Think about it: no need to travel; you just hop onto the pirate bay or wherever. No financial barrier necessary for one to try all of the products. No need to make any sort of commitment to the hobby: you can just put it on your machine, and play with it at your leisure. It's the ideal conditions to make a musician out of the average Joe. And once Joe fancies himself a musician, that's when he starts going to Sam ash, buying music mags, feeling guilty about cracking a DAW, seeking the newest products and better support, and ultimately actualizing his potential as a paying costumer. This stage is where a well placed freebee might sway Joe's loyalty from NI to Arturia or some such companies, but chances are Joe will pursue the companies that his habit grew up with first.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by calaverasgrande » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:22 pm

that whole argument is based on the idea that the software to make music costs too much for a hobbyist or student to afford. Which is not true. There are several free applications, either shareware, freeware or some other form of GNU license. Reaper and Audacity are plenty to get your feet wet. Quite a few plugins have free versions you can try for a limted period of time, or with a limited feature set.

OTOH the prevalence of pirating in content creation software creates an environment where legitimate users are put off by the various protection schemes that developers resort to.
And while the dev houses see less revenue than actual users it is hard to blame them.
Frankly one of the reasons I use very few softsynths or plugins is because I got fed up with having to install copy protection software that had many bugs. So I stick to the worlds most expensive software dongle. UAD!


Music is not the cheapest of hobbyies, and neither is photography. If you can't afford the basic toolset of a hobby, you can't afford the hobby. That is not license to steal them. Same as you would not smash and grab a camera.
Being musicians who would hope one day to be paid for our creativity and hard work, we have not a leg to stand on regarding copyright infringement!
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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by ninja6485 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:38 pm

calaverasgrande wrote:that whole argument is based on the idea that the software to make music costs too much for a hobbyist or student to afford.
No, it's not. Someone who's shopping for software, considering what they can and can't afford has already bit the hook. I'm saying Cracked DAW software is the bait that makes them bite.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by calaverasgrande » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:09 pm

ninja6485 wrote:
calaverasgrande wrote:that whole argument is based on the idea that the software to make music costs too much for a hobbyist or student to afford.
No, it's not. Someone who's shopping for software, considering what they can and can't afford has already bit the hook. I'm saying Cracked DAW software is the bait that makes them bite.
But why would they not just use Reaper or Audacity as I mentioned above. What is the requirement for cracked software?
I used to run cracked stuff and I know a number of guys that did as well. I swear to god the only point is so you can open your plugin menu and say 'golly look at all those plug ins!".
I really see no compelling reason why anyone has to use crackware.
I usually advise folks who come to me for such advice (I am an IT manager for a living) to avoid crackware not just because of legality, but because it is inherently unstable and likely has hidden payloads.
Besides, these days there is almost always a freeware, demo, freemium or shareware alternate route. Whether we are talking music, graphics or whatever.
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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:55 am

calaverasgrande wrote:I used to run cracked stuff and I know a number of guys that did as well. I swear to god the only point is so you can open your plugin menu and say 'golly look at all those plug ins!".
I think there are some people out there who aren't getting the results they want to hear from their mixes and blame their tools. They think that running "the same plugins as the pros use" is going to make their mixes better and so they crack them, not realise that it's the skills of the engineer that make the mix, not the tools they use.

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by ninja6485 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:30 am

calaverasgrande wrote:But why would they not just use Reaper or Audacity as I mentioned above.
You seem to be having a hard time putting yourself in the shoes of someone who is not enmeshed in the world of the hobby. Think about it: they're too esoteric. A lot of people just starting out don't even know they exist. People are going to Google a name they remember from an interview, or something they vaguely recall from a sign or advertisement. They may or may not know the term DAW. Extensive research to find cheap or free alternatives is too complicated for many people at this stage. People just aren't going to care that much about whether or not the software is cracked, especially if they're not even sure if it will stay installed for more than a week. It's funny because your question is not so much why wouldn't they use Reaper or Audacity as much as it is why don't they. :idea:

And you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I don't care if people think they're justified or unjustified/ doing the right thing or doing the wrong thing by downloading cracked software. I'm not giving an argument one way or the other about what an individual should do, or is justified in doing. What I'm doing is problematizing the unexamined view that Pirating software is hurting the industry by preventing the flow of capital into the DAW companies, and creating a narrative that describes how it is actually increasing the flow of capital into the DAW companies.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by calaverasgrande » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:24 am

in other words bending over backwards to excuse it. ;)

I used to be in the same boat, albeit when it was much harder to set up any kind of DAW for cheap at all. I spent a ton of money on hardware and tried to skimp on software. It wasn't worth it.
I also think you are shortselling the intelligence of your average nascent home producer.
At this point anyone can find their way to some music making dudes related forum. It is surprising to me how many google searches lead back to VSE or Gearsluts!
You stumble in one of those places it is hard not to hear about the freeware that is out there.
Audacity? That is not terribly esoteric. I know a 65 year old broadcast journalist that thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread. He was surprised to hear that musicians use it too. I've also seen it mentioned in some DSLR for Video tutorials.
Obviously neither of us is coming over to the position of the other. I also doubt either of us really has a dog in this fight, so just leave it at that.

If it's one message that I desperately want to get across to folks just starting out in computer music land, it's that biting the bullet and paying for the bare minimum will net you a more stable computing experience, and you can get on with making awful bleep bloops to annoy your friends with.
To me the crackware is not so much evil as a waste of time.
But you know it is full of ebolaids.
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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by ninja6485 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:27 pm

calaverasgrande wrote:Obviously neither of us is coming over to the position of the other.
I don't even think you understand what I'm saying well enough to be able to "come over to my position." Especially since you keep talking past me. :? If you want to make some claim that people are not excused for downloading cracked software, then fine. claim away. Excused or not excused, that matter doesn't touch the notion that cracked software helps bring money to the industry. All of the unexcused thieves(assuming for the sake of argument that they are such), though unexcused thieves, may be playing a vital role to help the industry flourish. As for shortchanging anyone's intelligence, lack of exposure has nothing to do with lack of intelligence.

A second note; I have audacity on my linux machine, and it is definitely not on the level of something like Cubase or Live. Regardless, having some of the best, most popular tools, freely (though perhaps reprehensibly) available, almost instantly at the touch of a button, helps people get hooked on the hobby better than not having that be the case. The other options are just that: other options. I'm not concerned with whether people should use them instead, or whether people feel justified or unjustified in getting cracked wares. I'm concerned with what work the cracked software is doing.

A third note; I should call attention to this:
calaverasgrande wrote:in other words bending over backwards to excuse it.
to point out that the very question of whether what I said excuses cracked software or not begs the question that it's a practice that needs excusing. Practices that need excusing are by their very nature bad or undesirable. Thus, if you're stating this to make the case that cracked software is bad and undesirable, this statement is circular in that it would have me agree to the hidden premise: that it is bad or undesirable, to even entertain the question of whether or not it's excused.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by calaverasgrande » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:48 pm

I dont have to make a case that cracked software is bad or undesireable.
It is illicit software which avoids paying for licensing therefore it is theft.
But since you seem to need a reason, please go back and read my earlier posts where I point out that cracked software almost always results in unstable systems. This is for a number of obvious reasons.
First, if you are using a cracked version of software, you will almost certainly not be able to log in to the developers site and download up to date patches. Instead you are dependent on XYb3Ria or whomever to crack the latest release. If there is no roll up release which includes the patches since the last one, you are out of luck.
It is also very well documented that cracked software is a vector for malware and botnets. Do you think those guys go through all of the trouble to circumvent the copy protection of a popular piece of software out of the goodness of their hearts?
They are using Cubase/Sonar/Pro Tools as bait so the unsuspecting people who download their warez are opting in to their botnet. Or maybe just installing a keylogger which will keep an eye out for credit card digits and bank account passwords.
The concept that cracked software is bad or undesirable is not some crazy out of left field concept that demands substanstiation.
However the concept that pirated software, which does not reimburse the developers of said product for their work somehow 'brings money to the industry' does need more work.
Your claim that it exposes nascent musicians to software that they would not otherwise know about is tenuous at best. Besides, just about every DAW has free demo versions, or LE versions you can get with a piece of hardware that costs less than $100.
Putting that aside, if someone thinks it is perfectly kosher to steal $500 software, what is the impetus for them to start paying? They are all on board with the pirate bay, so how does money arrive in the pockets of the developers? I suppose they will have to wait until those guys grow up, get a job, get married and have wives that get mad when they find out? Sorry to be silly but I simply do not see a connection here.
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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:18 am

Slightly off the topic of the current conversation, but if anyone's looking for a cheap and good daw for OSX or Linux then you should try Ardour for a dollar.

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by sequentialsoftshock » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:59 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:Slightly off the topic of the current conversation, but if anyone's looking for a cheap and good daw for OSX or Linux then you should try Ardour for a dollar.
You don't have a torrent link ? :lol:

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by Stab Frenzy » Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:16 am

sequentialsoftshock wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:Slightly off the topic of the current conversation, but if anyone's looking for a cheap and good daw for OSX or Linux then you should try Ardour for a dollar.
You don't have a torrent link ? :lol:
?

https://ardour.org/download.html

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by sequentialsoftshock » Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:28 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:
sequentialsoftshock wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:Slightly off the topic of the current conversation, but if anyone's looking for a cheap and good daw for OSX or Linux then you should try Ardour for a dollar.
You don't have a torrent link ? :lol:
?

https://ardour.org/download.html
I was being facetious given the nature of this thread, but I actually plan on checking it out. For $1 it looks pretty good and can't hurt to try.

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by ninja6485 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:29 pm

calaverasgrande wrote:the concept that pirated software, which does not reimburse the developers of said product for their work somehow 'brings money to the industry' does need more work.
Your claim that it exposes nascent musicians to software that they would not otherwise know about is tenuous at best. Besides, just about every DAW has free demo versions, or LE versions you can get with a piece of hardware that costs less than $100.
That is not my claim. I said that reaper and audacity were too esoteric to be live options instead of cracked software in the situation I'm talking about. I also said:
ninja6485 wrote:having some of the best, most popular tools, freely (though perhaps reprehensibly) available, almost instantly at the touch of a button, helps people get hooked on the hobby better than not having that be the case.
The more people you have hooked on the hobby, the more people you have that will be interested in your products. You asked what was the impetus for people to start paying after they cracked the software in a post where you also listed at great length the possible pitfalls of cracking software. In a sense you answered your own question, with the exception of the notion that once one becomes invested in a hobby, they will be more willing to invest their time, effort, and money into better working, less buggy and more prestigious tools. Experience with the pitfalls as well may bring the reality of those pitfalls to light.

As it stands, most of the people in their late teens/ early to mid 20's who might be interested in creating their own music with a DAW are already enmeshed in a climate where downloading games, music, movies, and other programs from torrent sites and so on is a common and accepted practice. They're already comfortable (though perhaps naively so) with taking the risks you've mentioned. Calling it theft is not much of a deterrent, and I suspect that the issue of whether and how it is theft is a great deal more complicated than it may at first seem. This is the point of departure for many to causally download the program, especially if they're not serious about using it at first. Again, I'm not concerned with telling you how you should view it, or what you should or shouldn't do, or think it is the right or wrong thing to do. I'm stepping outside of the question of "what should one do?" And asking the question: "What actually happens, and what are all of the effects of what happens?"

A single person who develops a habit of making music either as a hobby or as a professional is worth many people using a single product without a license. Especially considering that only a small fraction of those people would even pursue using the product with a license if they couldn't get it for free. Companies know this. They're after bigger game than that. They know they're in the business of creating people with habits that become long term clients. And for the most part, lite versions are not a bad way of trying to gain control of the situation. Will it be successful? Who knows, but from the standpoint of a potential investor, It has not been successful yet! I would very seriously take which software is the most cracked into consideration when evaluating which companies are on top, such that the most cracked would be a good indication of a leading position.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software

Post by calaverasgrande » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:44 pm

or maybe just an indication of worst copy protection.
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