Poll: how do you feel about pirated/cracked DAW software?

[seamonkey]

It's clearly obvious from the comments, one either believes it's ok to use, or it's not ok.
I've yet to hear any argument one way or the other convince someone to change their mind.

I think the argument belongs on the philosophy bookshelf somewhere between the right to life/choice, god/atheism, curly/shemp debate.

[griffin avid]

That's why I said this earlier in the thread.

I just wish we'd all admit it's a philosophical stance and not any part of it is rooted in logic or reason or economics.

[seamonkey]

That's why I said this earlier in the thread.

I just wish we'd all admit it's a philosophical stance and not any part of it is rooted in logic or reason or economics.

yes, but you never commented on the Curly/Shemp debate.

[Stab Frenzy]

That's why I said this earlier in the thread.

I just wish we'd all admit it's a philosophical stance and not any part of it is rooted in logic or reason or economics.

It's actually very firmly rooted in logic, reason and economics. If people think they don't have to pay for software then nobody will pay, and then there will be no money to employ the developers to make the next version of the software. It's pretty simple really. I don't know about you but I work hard and I'm good at my job and I expect to be paid for what I do. The same should go for the software developers.

[moog-lover]

Human is wild nature. If he can get it free he will get it free. Except he is well economically and has love to this tools, or he is morally right.
And it really hearts me on this topic. I personally try to use free software on everything, besides I have a few cracked ones from big companies now.
I think it should be some tricky way to make it impossible to fully crack it. Demos must be a really incomplete version of the tool, not a complete one with some key.

[Crawling Wind]

I used to work in the software industry back in the day. I know how much goes into a good product, and pay for everything every time. That being said, I do scour KVR for used licenses when they are legally available. That world is amazing to me, stuff just flies around on that site.

[Nistegmos]

i have been thinking about this topic again.

I think it's important for me to say that my most important programs are each paywares that I paid for. Image-Line FL Studio and Toxic Biohazard and Harmor, and REAPER in particular. Also Vember Surge and MultitrackStudio Pro Plus.

Everything else that really has helped me out a lot has been straight up no strings attached freewares, like the nirsoft stuff from http://portablefreeware.com

Most of the stuff that was expensive demoware didn't make the cut and the limitations were too annoying to keep the stuff on my machine so I deleted them. And the nagware shareware stuff messes with VST scans amongst other things such as not saving settings so I usually don't keep those either.

It's also worth saying that I gave PayPal donations to the maker of Equilibre VST and some other VST's and programs that were cool along with a donation to Wikipedia for helping me to sort out some facts from fiction.

So I don't want to seem like a heel from my previous posts. I hope this gives a clearer picture of my perspective.

[skunk3]

Here's my thoughts on the matter, and I hope that I do not offend anyone.

First, I will state outright that I do not use any software anymore aside from a freeware audio editor that I use for recording my hardware. That said, I used a LOT of pirated software in the past. In fact, I've never actually paid for anything in terms of audio software, and I had basically everything there was to get... more stuff than I could possibly get around to using, much less fully appreciating. ("Less is more" definitely applies to ITB production as well as hardware-based production!)

I know that pirating software is not ethically justifiable (from a strictly philosphical perspective), but the reality of the situation is that even if I COULD have afforded to purchase the software that I frequently used back then, I never would have. I've never made a lot of money and what money that I did have was going to go towards tangible things, like hardware or basic household items, living expenses, etc. Even if I had some free money kicking around, I'd never spend money on something that I know that I can get for free, especially when it is utterly indistinguishable from the 'real thing' and the odds of getting into any sort of trouble whatsoever are slim to none.

Sure, some of these bootlegs were infected, but that is easily sidestepped with a little knowledge. Also, there are soooo many bits of software that I obtained that I feel were very, very overpriced. (Waves, I'm looking at you!) If I paid full retail price for them, I would have been a bit pissed off. I fully believe in "try before you buy," but I also believe that there's no harm in downloading and using bootlegged software if you don't realistically have the money to buy it to begin with... What I mean by this is imagine that there's some 15 year-old kid who lives at home with his parents. He wants to make music and has watched tutorials about FL Studio via YouTube. For most kids that age, the price of that program would be a small fortune (even possibly unobtainable), and even if they managed to save up that kind of cash, odds are that there's things that they want/need more than a piece of software, so the likelihood of them actually buying it are slim... therefore, what is the harm in downloading and using a bootlegged version when you're not taking money out of the developer's pockets, especially if you do not 'seed' these warez, spread them around, or somehow profit from them?

I personally feel the same way about music, movies, and basically any sort of intangible digital goods. If I plan on buying something, I'll buy it, but just because I do not plan on ever buying a certain thing, does that mean that I should disallow myself from obtaining said thing just to see if it's good or not? There's no physical loss, nor is there any loss of revenue going on... For example, if I wanted to listen to a Justin Beiber album just to see how terrible it might be, and I download a copy of it, am I wrong for doing this even though I would never pay for it to begin with? Also, for that matter, where do we draw the line? There's an insane amount of copyrighted music shared on YouTube, so if you listen to a song from there, aren't you just as guilty as downloading something? Or does streaming not count?

I think that using pirated software is a bit of an issue if you can comfortably afford to purchase it, and you use it all of the time (especially for profit), yet you refuse to pay for it. However, on the same token, I can't blame someone for NOT spending money on something when they can get it for free. I personally think that paying for software is stupid 99% of the time, but that is just my personal opinion. I know all of the arguments pro and con here, and I know that piracy is not ethically justifiable, but I am no moral exemplar and I see piracy as a victimless crime when the overwhelming majority of stuff that I downloaded in the past was/is stuff that I'd never pay for in the first place. Digital goods are NOT the same as tangible, physical goods. Stealing a tangible, physical item is more morally reprehensible than 'stealing' a digital good, IMHO.

[griffin avid]

Here's my thoughts on the matter, and I hope that I do not offend anyone.
I think it's too open a topic to find anyone left offended anymore.

If I paid full retail price for them, I would have been a bit pissed off.
Since you weren't in an industry or relied on music for any sort of income, YOU never needed to be using WAVES.
You would have been fine with cheaper or free stuff.

For most kids that age, the price of that program would be a small fortune....
Fruity Loops is $99. Stop it.

Everything else is pretty standard justifications, which all really boiled down to this...
I'd never spend money on something that I know that I can get for free...

And that's not exactly new news.

[ninja6485]

I know that pirating software is not ethically justifiable (from a strictly philosphical perspective),

Well, capitalism isn't necessarily the best, or most ethical system for supporting the creation and proliferation of software/media. It just happens to be the way we're doing things now. People fear change & the unknown, and the free exchange of programs and media may be the beginning of a new and different (possibly not capitalist? [nothing against it per se]) way of supporting the creation and proliferation of software/digital media. Once upon a time there was this idea that competition made people design better products, and the best products would be the most successful, and generate more money and get stronger. Instead, all we get is a stupid plurality of file types, and average but flashy products that maximize the initial "wow" factor but minimize cost and effort, usually coming in just above mediocrity. Some of the best things that could be done won't because it's not practical/ profitable as part of a business model. If pirating can undermine the business aspect, maybe we could replace it with something that works better.

if I wanted to listen to a Justin Beiber album just to see how terrible it might be, and I download a copy of it, am I wrong for doing this even though I would never pay for it to begin with?

I do this all the time, or at least some version of this. I actually discovered good looking records by buying a cheap used copy of earth vol. 4 sight unseen from an FYE because of the cover art! You never know what you're going to stumble into. I Swear you take an inch and give a mile sometimes Actually, this is good to do, and in a previous post I explained how NI stood to benefit from people doing this, viz.. Maybe you were just getting started, not really sure if you even wanted to get into making music electronically at all, but you downloaded FM7 many years ago. Now that you have some cash, weaned on FM7, and encountering NI's stuff constantly, when it's time to buys some software, you already have your brand loyalty. You go for Komplete over the Arturia stuff. Not only did downloading FM7 act as a foot in the door to create a costomer, but it helped secure brand loyalty. I think they know about this effect, and are trying to do things like limited free distributions to attempt to have it occur on their terms. They also famously hired at least one pirate as a sound designer after hearing his stuff, which he talks about in an interview!

[rbmusic]

i know most of the big software sample lib developers and have worked with a great deal of them, so if it wasnt just for the fact its stealing, id have even bigger moral issues with the fact most are friends now whom i can come to know well. when you add in the human aspect, its funny how it all becomes more direct, personable and like you can see how you would essentially be picking there pockets.
i know a lot of people will find a ton of ways to say its ok to steal. from stating its in our nature to do so lol, or plead innocence over trying before buying, but i know a lot of guys who have studios with tens of 1000's of dollars of synths etc, but they are happy to steal a 400 buck program so they avoid any buyers remorse.
do what ever works for you, no one can tell you any different, BUT, dont kick off merry h**l if you get busted. it is what it is. so take it like a man

[skunk3]

Here's my thoughts on the matter, and I hope that I do not offend anyone.
I think it's too open a topic to find anyone left offended anymore.

If I paid full retail price for them, I would have been a bit pissed off.
Since you weren't in an industry or relied on music for any sort of income, YOU never needed to be using WAVES.
You would have been fine with cheaper or free stuff.

For most kids that age, the price of that program would be a small fortune....
Fruity Loops is $99. Stop it.

Everything else is pretty standard justifications, which all really boiled down to this...
I'd never spend money on something that I know that I can get for free...

And that's not exactly new news.

It doesn't matter if I really needed to be using the Waves bundle. I am sure that for some people who use it a lot for specific reasons, it could ostensibly be a good value, but from my admittedly limited perspective (hobbyist bedroom producer) I was laughing at how much people were paying for it. I know many, many people who use audio software of different sorts and I think that the people who download vs. the people who pay is a ratio around 20:1 based upon what I've seen. Also, if someone were okay with downloading pirated software, why would they not obtain what they perceive to be 'the best,' rather than some freeware? I am personally glad that I made the decision to obtain this stuff because it has taught me a lot about production, mixing, and mastering. Stuff that I probably never would have learned otherwise. As far as the price of FL Studio goes, I'm sure that you can probably get a basic, stripped-down version for $99, but last I checked, the full version of the program that includes lifetime updates was somewhere around $400-500. Then again, this was years ago so who knows what it is today? I stand by what I said though... I'm never going to spend money on something that I can get for free, and I don't believe that obtaining bootlegged digital goods is "stealing," per se. It's something different. Similar, but not the same. Anyhow, different strokes for different folks. I'll buy a physical video game or vinyl record or a drum machine, but there's no way I'm going to buy any software unless I absolutely *had* to. If that makes me a terrible human being, oh well. I think I can live with it. Like I said before, I think that paying for software is dumb unless you just so happen to have so much disposable income that you could do so without blinking.

[synthroom]

[...] and I don't believe that obtaining bootlegged digital goods is "stealing," per se. It's something different. Similar, but not the same.

Well, what is it then if it's not stealing?

By the way - From Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com):
bootleg: an illegal copy of a video, CD, etc., or an illegal recording of a live performance

Theft of digital goods is so easy for people to rationalize - it's not a tangible item like something substantial. But, as other have pointed out, there is a lot of work and time that goes into the creation of them. I find it interesting that people will pay for vinyl, but not music that has been digitized. Same for software, I guess they feel that if there's no disk, then it must not be worth anything.

[CS_TBL]

Fighting warez is like yelling and screaming towards fruit flies.. and yet they keep coming.. and coming.. and coming.

You can't change it, no matter how bad and unethical. The only thing you can do, being a developer, is to be nice and flexible towards potential customers. You have to make them like you, then they'll buy your goods.. because they like you. That might not be oldskool (based on the traditional shop: you want something, you buy it), but then again, we're in a nuskool world today, things are different now!

In the past half year I bought two libraries from companies/developers I like, and I intend to buy another one within this month. Did I have/use all those libraries earlier than that? Sure, it's all out in the open and it barely requires any search skills. Yet still, I bought 'em, after carefully trying all the possibilities. Now, what does that mean to you? I think this is an example of 'try before buy'. And of course there will always be people who try and never buy, but in this nuskool world I think that comes with the package. Live with it or make them like you.

[skunk3]

[...] and I don't believe that obtaining bootlegged digital goods is "stealing," per se. It's something different. Similar, but not the same.

Well, what is it then if it's not stealing?

By the way - From Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com):
bootleg: an illegal copy of a video, CD, etc., or an illegal recording of a live performance

Theft of digital goods is so easy for people to rationalize - it's not a tangible item like something substantial. But, as other have pointed out, there is a lot of work and time that goes into the creation of them. I find it interesting that people will pay for vinyl, but not music that has been digitized. Same for software, I guess they feel that if there's no disk, then it must not be worth anything.

I don't consider it stealing because of two main reasons:

1. There is no theft of tangible, physical goods. There is no profit lost at all aside from a potential sale, but if the person downloading it had no intention ever of buying it to begin with, there's no loss at all.

2. Stealing, to me, implies that one person is taking something directly from another in a sneaky, underhanded manner. When one downloads pirated software, they aren't hacking servers to get to it or walking out of a store with a box under their coat. They're merely clicking to download something that is freely shared by someone else.

This is why I can kind of understand why people might say that downloading pirated material is "stealing," but I don't agree, and it doesn't really matter what modern dictionary definition someone can throw at me. The only thing that I will concede is that it is a smidge unethical, but only as bothersome to my mental well-being as a cloudy day. I understand that for developers and others expecting to make money from these products, it would be TOTALLY different and quite possibly infuriating, but they should recognize the fact that they peddle in wares (warez, lol) that are EXTREMELY easy to obtain. Genuinely expecting people to willingly pay for something that they can get for free with a few clicks is laughable in its absurdity.

The reason why I will pay for physical items such as vinyl and whatnot is because of the sound quality primarily... plus I love cover art and I like to collect certain things. I also care about resale factor. If you purchase a mp3, you cannot sell it later on should you decide you grow tired of it. You also can't "lend" stuff like mp3s and such. With Playstation 4 games you can often purchase a physical copy or a downloadable digital copy, and they are the same price. Unless one absolutely could not obtain a physical copy somehow, why on Earth would someone purchase a downloadable, digital copy unless their disc drive was f**k? They can never resell it unless they sold their ACCOUNT. Anyhow, there's plenty of reasons to buy physical copies of some stuff and just get bootlegs of the rest.

I'm not telling anyone to go out and get pirated stuff... all I'm saying is that I would if I wanted/needed it. No shame in my game.