wavestation expansion PCMs.

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jxalex
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wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by jxalex » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:19 pm

well, opened the Wavestation A/D - there are 8 ROMs - IC1.. IC8.

in the Wavestation keyboard model without EX there are sockets for PCM expansion IC2,3,4,5

I could read out any of the WS A/D pcm ROMs, but which 4 of those 8 ROMs?
So, any ideas which ROMs from WS A/D can be inserted to these sockets as expansion?

My speculation is so far that they _can_ be IC1...4 . As in the Wavestation keyboard model the ROMs 8, and 9 have the same marking as the ICs 7,8 in the WS A/D.


A service manual about Wavestation A/D model would share the light for it, I think, however I have only the Wavestation keyboard (without EX) service manual and so I cant make a comparison directly now.

Then we get some expansion PCM readouts. ;-)

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by Rasputin » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:04 pm

I've got the normal Korg Wavestation *AND* Wavestation A/D service manuals. Give me a second to post the A/D.

Okay, here's the very rare Wavestation A/D service manual:

I know I've already these somewhere too, but for good measure here are the A/D v1.25 EPROMs:

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by jxalex » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:01 pm

Thank you, librarian. :)

Good that you like these v1.25 eproms ;) I got them from a e-bay member in the past and also the same from one trader just to crosscheck if I got the rightones.
Did I sent to You the V1.01 too in the past? I do not recall it... if not then just I send 'em.

[EDIT:] solved. The expansion ICs in WS A/D are 1..4 which go directly to Wavestation keyboard. Readout now.
Thank You for manual, as soon I have some readout dump I can add something valuable in your file library if it works tested with Wavestation non-EX synthesizer. :)

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by Rasputin » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:10 pm

The only difference between the standard and EX is the OS ROM needs to be substituted and the four expansion ICs are put into already available sockets, right? It works out to be a simple 5 EPROM kit, correct?

The annoying thing is that you had to go through all those extra steps because no one took the time to read out the ready-made expansion. Laziness combined with "well, I'm upgraded, so that's all that matters" type thinking is so unfortunate.

Thanks for putting in the extra work, Alex.

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by desmond » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:36 pm

Rasputin wrote:The only difference between the standard and EX is the OS ROM needs to be substituted and the four expansion ICs are put into already available sockets, right? It works out to be a simple 5 EPROM kit, correct?
Don't forget the "EX" sticker..! :)

So once these have been read, what can be done with them? I have an original (non-EX) WS, but with the latest OS (3.19 iirc). Can the expansion ROM data be burned onto chips to essentially make the EX uprade "available" again? The chips/sockets would still have to be soldered in to the board, presumably..? I can't remember offhand whether the empty slot have sockets, but I didn't think they did...

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by jxalex » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:40 pm

@Rasputin:
4 PCM roms plus 1 pair of firmware EPROMs, yep.
Well, I have also all upgraded, ... but I do not know why I cant just abandon and let go all of it -- those who ask upgrades. Is it becouse I got other contributions and help as well when I asked? Well.. Yes! it is extra work what I do, but anything possible for another contributor who takes the same effort when I ask something.


@Desmond:
It is uncertain, (and what I do is just becouse of one Wavestation keyboard which is not even mine) but my hope is that after these have been read, what can be done is to send these to one helpful generous kind VSE fellow here who has Wavestation keyboard model and asked the both firmware pair chips AND expansion. Why I bother is also becouse he contributed when I asked hardware. Thats what counts. If it gets working as it should then thats the ultimate goal and achievement what counts.
After that I would not really bother if others would ask the same thing... unless it does mean other contributions...

About others who talk about this expansion --- welcome if they contribute in a similar hardware level. The contributions are a way MUCH better currency than the money really is and thus I am not interested to make it widely available for without contributions even if I am author for this particular readout only.

To just illustrate my point: it is possible to make many many things and services available, but I make affordable to only those who contribute themself too. My answer usually for someone who makes "bestoffer" with only half of the price is usually "can you provide the Roland/Korg ROM cards or expansion cards? /--and many other things in todo list --/ Are you with demoscene or reverse engineering synthesizers and active with retro computers?".. So, something which for most eyes seem to be irrelevant, are value to me and the only argument to get discount or any favours at all as just "give it to me!" with money is really not always the best thing.
Well, how naive way several times I have waited that someone would meet atleast ONE requirement to get the argument.

Its all about sharing, becouse otherwise it is like having very own individual race with 1001 things to do what -- no-one does or takes interest, but once when I have ready something then "give/do this me too" is the usual response.

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by desmond » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:33 pm

Ok, thanks I was just asking why you were doing this or what it meant, I wasn't asking or expecting anything from you.

It's difficult to understand you exactly, but looks like you are copying the chips for someone as a favour. That's fine, sometimes someone is doing a favour for one person, sometimes someone is contributing something to the community. Now I know which - I was just curious, don't take offence...

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by Rasputin » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:48 pm

desmond wrote:
Rasputin wrote:The only difference between the standard and EX is the OS ROM needs to be substituted and the four expansion ICs are put into already available sockets, right? It works out to be a simple 5 EPROM kit, correct?
Don't forget the "EX" sticker..! :)

So once these have been read, what can be done with them? I have an original (non-EX) WS, but with the latest OS (3.19 iirc). Can the expansion ROM data be burned onto chips to essentially make the EX uprade "available" again? The chips/sockets would still have to be soldered in to the board, presumably..? I can't remember offhand whether the empty slot have sockets, but I didn't think they did...
I'm pretty sure that the point is to re-create the original Wavestation to Wavestation EX upgrade bundle that Korg used to have way-back-when. Very easy to duplicate should you have access to a Wavestation made EX, but if you're working from a stock EX or A/D then ascertaining the changes is a bit harder. Looks like jxalex has located the correct ICs within the A/D though, and the firmware is just a straight rip from any EX. But considering the kit used to be available, I think there were already sockets. I could be wrong though, or maybe it varied at different points in the production line. Don't have a Wavestation, so can't check.

Alex can correct me if I'm incorrect on any of this, but I believe it is the case.

Even if the mainboard only has empty slots and not sockets, it would still be a fairly easy upgrade as sockets cost next-to-nothing and soldering in sockets is WAY easier than having to remove and replace multiple ICs.

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by Yekuku » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:31 am

If my memory serves me rights there are no sockets, even the OS eproms are soldered on the pcb.
In order to update to EX you should desolder 2 OS chips and solder 6 IC sockets There are 4 pcm roms that are 4001 type and should be installed to the empty slot of IC 2 ,3 ,4 ,5 of KLM-1415
It is all about sharing...

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by desmond » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:32 am

I'm fairly sure that my non-EX WS does not have empty sockets, it just has empty board space with no sockets - this is partly why the original EX upgrade required installation by Korg (who presumably soldered in the sockets). I'd have to go open up up to refresh my memory, but I did go in there quite a lot back in the early days of WS ownership, for various reasons I won't go into here.

Obviously they must have designed the thing with additional ROM expansion in mind, otherwise they wouldn't have that space in there, but the EX took another year or so to come out after the original WS. Mine is a fairly early one I think, but I did get the OS updated from Korg (I had to send my OS chip back, and then sent me a replacement one) and that just went into a socket.

I"m not bothered about upgrading mine (certainly not if it's tricky to do) as the software is good enough, and besides that, the PCM cards I have broadly cover the expansion EX waves anyway (they are not the same, but they do cover the piano and the drums stuff, which is the bulk of what got added for the EX (as that was the main criticism of the original WS at the time.)

(I'd probably prefer to replace the backlight before trying to get the EX upgrade done...)

Anyway, interesting all the same...

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by desmond » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:35 am

Yekuku wrote:If my memory serves me rights there are no sockets, even the OS eproms are soldered on the pcb.
In order to update to EX you should desolder 2 OS chips and solder 6 IC sockets There are 4 pcm roms that are 4001 type and should be installed to the empty slot of IC 2 ,3 ,4 ,5 of KLM-1415
My OS must have been socketed, because Korg sent me the two replacement OS chips and I fitted them myself - I'm not that confident about my soldering abilities to do that (certainly not back then)... I can check if necessary...

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by jxalex » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:43 am

desmond wrote:Ok, thanks I was just asking why you were doing this or what it meant, I wasn't asking or expecting anything from you.

It's difficult to understand you exactly, but looks like you are copying the chips for someone as a favour.
That's fine,
sometimes someone is doing a favour for one person, ...
Look, it is not happening every day that someone adresses my interests too and
borrows to me expansion card for copying... hmm? :) Then of course it is worth extra effort and time in order to take apart wavestation with its EPROMs from motherboard to make readout.
sometimes someone is contributing something to the community. Now I know which - I was just curious, don't take offence...
Well... in this case can we still make readouts of the Korg MSC waveform cards or do You post online the waveform card readout dumps? When I made shootout that "hey these PCM cards can be readed out and replicated!" in a means that it can be made affordable by public co-operation, I hope it was just a hilarious joke when You answered "no I am not sending anything". HOwever my main interest are the Waveform PCM cards for Korg M1. (I Have M1Rex module).

Now I really would imagine someone other besides me putting online the reverse engineering information about the Roland SRX card or Roland SR-JV series waveform dumps which would move atleast from hand to hand... khm.
I have several other ones, and the future would be like this that imagine having Roland JD990, JV1080, XV5080 all having equipped with "Vintagesynth" card without need to flip in-and-out between the modules.

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by jxalex » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:07 am

Rasputin wrote: Looks like jxalex has located the correct ICs within the A/D though, and the firmware is just a straight rip from any EX. But considering the kit used to be available, I think there were already sockets. I could be wrong though, or maybe it varied at different points in the production line. Don't have a Wavestation, so can't check.

Alex can correct me if I'm incorrect on any of this, but I believe it is the case.

Even if the mainboard only has empty slots and not sockets, it would still be a fairly easy upgrade as sockets cost next-to-nothing and soldering in sockets is WAY easier than having to remove and replace multiple ICs.
the most funny thing is that even in the A/D model the PCM waveform bank is marked which ones are the "expansion" chips, (like there are not-expanded A/D models too?!) and all these chips are 200ns speed.

I have only the A/D model. Cant compare with EX or non-EX model still.
Last edited by jxalex on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by desmond » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:08 am

jxalex wrote:Well... in this case can we still make readouts of the Korg MSC waveform cards or do You post online the waveform card readout dumps? When I made shootout that "hey these PCM cards can be readed out and replicated!" in a means that it can be made affordable by public co-operation, I hope it was just a hilarious joke when You answered "no I am not sending anything". HOwever my main interest are the Waveform PCM cards for Korg M1. (I Have M1Rex module).
It was a somewhat jokey, but good-natured response, but partly because I was finding your responses rather argumentative in that thread which I found a bit frustrating, therefore wasn't overly keen to go out of my way to help you out, either - so it works both ways! :lol:
jxalex wrote:Now I really would imagine someone other besides me putting online the reverse engineering information about the Roland SRX card or Roland SR-JV series waveform dumps which would move atleast from hand to hand... khm. I have several other ones, and the future would be like this that imagine having Roland JD990, JV1080, XV5080 all having equipped with "Vintagesynth" card without need to flip in-and-out between the modules.
It would be "good", but probably not very sensible to do this, legally speaking. If you/whoever were going to do this, you'd be better off not talking about it online/publicly, as particularly SRX cards, and the data on them, are owned by Roland and are still very much their current technology, and incorporated into things like the Integra.

Even the WS/M1 stuff, while being much older products, are still part of current Korg products (and, the card data are in-app purchases for the iOS apps).

Like I say, if this was a project you wanted to do for yourself, for whatever hardware, that's up to you, but if you plan on distributing them, you could be asking for trouble, and it's not something I personally would want to be involved in.

(I actually sold an M1 PCM card on ebay recently for a tiny amount of money, so they are around... I think that was given to me back in the WS days to check how the WS read M1 cards - there's a one sample loop issue with the PCM data, iirc, due to a bug in the M1 card handling...)

So no, you still can't have my cards... ;)

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Re: wavestation expansion PCMs.

Post by jxalex » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:30 am

desmond wrote: It would be "good", but probably not very sensible to do this, legally speaking. If you/whoever were going to do this, you'd be better off not talking about it online/publicly, as particularly SRX cards, and the data on them, are owned by Roland and are still very much their current technology, and incorporated into things like the Integra.

To my surprise I was not the first one with that idea, but with difference that that dude who did that, had done it 10 years ago already and put the complete schematics and info to his website, which is still online :D :D :D
While I was so modest that did not almost dare to speak that how simple it is actually the whole process.
So, really, question I have is ... for what purpose is that 93LCxx serial data chip on that SRX card besides 32MW ROM memory on it?

btw, hilarious, that INtegra7 is really module which only has one benefit -- all the expansion cards inside ready for readout. :D :D :D no other benefits! Its operating system and build is really wacko way becouse of its apt to crash; :S
Even the WS/M1 stuff, while being much older products, are still part of current Korg products (and, the card data are in-app purchases for the iOS apps).

Like I say, if this was a project you wanted to do for yourself, for whatever hardware, that's up to you, but if you plan on distributing them, you could be asking for trouble, and it's not something I personally would want to be involved in.

So no, you still can't have my cards... ;)

Certainly I would not put online a shop "cheap cards" or something, due to its nature.
But atleast it would make other fellows here the fun with expanded way as I have other things to contribute as it is meant just for me and other active fellows here and no outsiders. everyone of us wants to have all cards, so why not to put all together, get some flash memories and put to PCBs and all done. Furthermore if the format can be dissected then any waveforms can be put on a card.

Certainly problem would be solved if we all 200 most active vintage synth explorers would be in the same suburbia or village and doing intensive caring (I mean sharing, as sharing is caring?). :D

Were not the same EPROM expansions also as for sale what I am copying right now? ;) Or sales article. Perhaps.
What next? Perhaps it is not legal to share satellite TV reception or internet too with someone other in neighbourhood as the some companies "lose profits"? ;)
Last edited by jxalex on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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