Rant about the lack of modern hardware samplers.

Discussions about anything related to samplers and sampling techniques.
User avatar
tallowwaters
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4998
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:11 am
Gear: LC-MS/MS
Location: snake's belly in a wagon rut

Post by tallowwaters » Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:38 pm

piRoN wrote:
You still haven't understood my point.
and likely never will.

thing is, piron has been here for a long time helping people. you offer nothing substantial, merely half assed assumptions, so nobody is f**k listening to you anyways.

question - if a j**ka** brays loudly in an empty pasture and nobody is around to hear it, does it really make a sound?
Brains can be used like a "stress ball," but only once.

User avatar
Cruel Hoax
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:33 pm
Gear: Moog Voyager, Roland V-Synth, Roland MC-909, Parker Nitefly, Master Room & Fostex Springverbs, Lexicon Vortex, Travel guitar, Acoustic guitar.
Band: Giorgio Moroder's Moustache
Location: The Land of Cheese

Try squirting ether into the carb of your fuel-injected PC

Post by Cruel Hoax » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:57 am

piRoN is my f**k hero.

It's like we're a bunch of guys who like driving old American muscle cars, and there are all these dudes constantly sticking their heads into the garage and piping up with, "A new Honda gets better gas milage! And it has electric windows and locks! And an automatic transmission! You guys are stupid not to be driving one."

Yeah, we know all about the new Hondas. It's just that we prefer to drop the hammer on a GTO Judge (and watch the gas guage drop!) rather than drive some-goddam-thing with a computer inside the engine that decides when to shift and when it needs to be serviced.

-Hoax
"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." -Baron Munchausen

User avatar
smallsynth
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 465
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:47 pm
Gear: jp03, dx21, bass station, k-station, gnat, buzz, cs01-mkii, eml-101, eh-401
Band: resterisk
Location: seattle!

Post by smallsynth » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:17 am

i, too, appreciated piron's post.

KLAXON
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:54 am
Location: Right here...

Post by KLAXON » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:28 am

Hear, hear! Finally some people with some sense. BTW, good analogy Hoax.
A virtual toast to piRoN and all the others keeping the art of hardware sampling alive.
:occasion5:
.....i have some things that create and sculpt sound.

User avatar
Analog Freak
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:29 am
Location: Ohio

Post by Analog Freak » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:11 am

"VSE: We do it with Hardware!" This should be our unofficial motto, anyone concur? PiRoN, you are a man of great wisdom, live long and prosper.
"All Your Synthesizers Are Belong To Us!" Literally.

User avatar
Mister Bill
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 9:52 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL
Contact:

Post by Mister Bill » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:56 pm

Wow, I've sparked a heated debate. I'm proud of myself.

I don't mind using the computer to manipulate the samples, but honestly I feel it a waste to have to spend $1000+ on a laptop fast enough to handle the overhead of realtime playback, $200+ on a software sampler for it, $200+ on an audio/MIDI interface, and $200 for a decent 61 key controller, just to play the it live, when a keyboard that would probably retail for $700-$800 could do the same thing. Now of course it could be argued that the you could use the laptops for other things....though in my experience you have to have a seperate computer dedicated to music and nothing but music in order to get any sort of stability.

So basically, at this point we've dropped $1600 or more on our "hardware sampler". An Alesis Fusion 6HD costs a grand, and you could probably shave off a significant portion if you remove everything but the sampling (especially if you remove the internal hard drive and all the hardware necessary for the Fusion to interface with that).

Now, I am figuring most of you people who use softsamplers and are saying that everybody should just use softsamplers because your ways are superior are in bands that consist of 2 or 3 people or are solo artists, and your projects are all very focused around the computer. Therefore, you're justified in using a softsampler because you probably already have a computer that's dedicated for music. Good for you.

Let's say you're in a rock band that consists of you (the keyboardist), two guitarists, a bassist, and a drummer, and the music is always completely live and there is some amount of improvisation going on, so really at the whim of one of the band members a section can go longer, and your music has always been played live, so you aren't using Ableton Live. Your rig consists of an 88 key digital piano, an organ, and some flavor of synthesizer (let's just say an Ion). Let's say one day you want to add something new to your rig, so you decide you want to get a sampler. You want to be able to swap to this sampler just as fast as you can swap keyboards between your existing keyboard, so you need a keyboard dedicated to the sampler. Also, since your group never has done anything with automated backing before and really doesn't intend on it, you have no need for sequencing. Finally, your band always goes into a professional studio to record, therefore you don't need recording capabilities either. Basically all you need is a keyboard that plays samples, and you want to be able to load your own samples into the keyboard.

So basically, if you're wanting to buy something new, probably your best bet for a decent hardware sampler is an Alesis Fusion, which is going to cost you $1000, and while you may eventually use the synthesizers in it as well, you'll most certainly never find a use for the sequencing and recording. So basically that 40 gig hard drive is going almost completely to waste since you don't use ridiculous sample libraries, therefore you could have just used a compactflash card.

Or of course you could go for a softsampler, which based on the math at the start of this post is going to run you $1,600.00, unless of course you decide to upgrade your home computer you mostly just use to look at myspace and p**n to run the softsampler, which would be a $300 dump if you take the easy route and get Emulator X, though you may also have to upgrade your RAM, processor, or motherboard, and even then you may have IRQ conflicts with existing hardware (network cards, SATA cards, etc.).

So basically, in our current state, you have to buy used (which usually means floppy drives that are 720K only and/or dead, SCSI CD-ROM drives, memory that's rare as rocking horse s**t, etc.), or spend $1000 on a Fusion which does far more than you need, or you'll have to shell out $1600 for a laptop and accessories you'll be sure that will actually work, or spend $300 on your computer, have to carry your computer to gigs (and your computer is generally far less forgiving than your keyboards about vibration), and your current computer may not necessarily work.

Welcome to most of the keyboardists in the world. We aren't all making techno.[/list]
Mister Bill

Alesis Ion - Korg Mono/Poly - Yamaha SY77 - DSI Evolver - Emulator X
http://www.myspace.com/mister8ill

User avatar
mwbassguy
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:32 am
Real name: Justin
Location: nyc
Contact:

Post by mwbassguy » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:47 am

well, when you have something like a fairlight, or even an S-50, youve got basically a computer with a keyboard built into it. sure, its a computer thats built specifically for dealing with sampling, and its got a custom interface, but its still just a computer.

however, to do real sampling with a computer nowadays, you need more than just the sampler program; you need additional software to record and sequence and often another program for wave editing, not to mention the whole OS of the computer and all that other stuff that slows it down.

what if there was a PCI card, controller and software combo that turned your old 200 Mhz pentium into a sampling powerhouse? the software would be dead simple and because theres no OS or vst host theres no wasted resources, so you could get good performance out of an old beater thats been sitting in your closet collecting dust. all the recording, playback and MIDI stuff would be handled by the PCI card, and the interface has all the knobs and controls that you would want to use the machine. if you really want to be a luddite, you could even design it so that the entirety of interface, i. e. screen, keypad, etc. are on the connected interface so that you never need to be reminded that youre using the old box that you used to play quake on.

of course, this would be a monumental task and probably infeasible for a number of reasons, but it would be a lot easier than just building a new sampler from scratch.
an avatar and a sig make one's posts more easily recognizable.

xp50player
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:25 am

Post by xp50player » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:55 am

[quote="mwbassguy"]
what if there was a PCI card, controller and software combo that turned your old 200 Mhz pentium into a sampling powerhouse? the software would be dead simple and because theres no OS or vst host theres no wasted resources, so you could get good performance out of an old beater thats been sitting in your closet collecting dust. all the recording, playback and MIDI stuff would be handled by the PCI card, and the interface has all the knobs and controls that you would want to use the machine. if you really want to be a luddite, you could even design it so that the entirety of interface, i. e. screen, keypad, etc. are on the connected interface so that you never need to be reminded that youre using the old box that you used to play quake on.
of course, this would be a monumental task and probably infeasible for a number of reasons, but it would be a lot easier than just building a new sampler from scratch.[/quote]

Sounds like a Creamware Scope card might be worth checking out. I had the original Pulsar (4 DSP version of Scope system) and it ran great on my PIII 450Mhz. It came with a lite version of their Akai-compatable sampler plug-in, which I didn't mess with too much, because I also had a DJ-70MkII at the time.

User avatar
translucencecs
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:01 am
Gear: In a transitional phase, so only:
Yamaha SY-22
Roland MC-09
Roland M-VS1
Zoom ST-224
Dubreq Stylophone
Fostex MR8
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Post by translucencecs » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:46 pm

Analog Freak wrote:"VSE: We do it with Hardware!" This should be our unofficial motto, anyone concur? PiRoN, you are a man of great wisdom, live long and prosper.
I'd totally agree, but try telling that to the guys in the Softsynths forum! :roll:
mwbassguy wrote:what if there was a PCI card, controller and software combo that turned your old 200 Mhz pentium into a sampling powerhouse? the software would be dead simple and because theres no OS or vst host theres no wasted resources, so you could get good performance out of an old beater thats been sitting in your closet collecting dust. all the recording, playback and MIDI stuff would be handled by the PCI card, and the interface has all the knobs and controls that you would want to use the machine. if you really want to be a luddite, you could even design it so that the entirety of interface, i. e. screen, keypad, etc. are on the connected interface so that you never need to be reminded that youre using the old box that you used to play quake on.
Not a bad idea, but good 19" rack cases for PCs cost a LOAD more than I'm prepared to spend... Then there's the time spent re-casing it, and I'd only be happy if it worked without keyboard, monitor and mouse, and didn't refuse to boot because it had no video card...

In the end, it'd be cheaper, less hassle and more effective to buy an Emu ESI sampler second hand, and use the Pentium 200 for backup storage, sample conversion and bank management for it!

User avatar
Automatic Gainsay
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 3962
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:22 am
Real name: Marc Doty
Gear: Minimoog, 2600, CS-15, CS-50, MiniBrute, MicroBrute, S2, Korg MS-20 Mini, 3 Volcas, Pro 2, Leipzig, Pianet T, Wurli 7300, Wurli 145-A, ASR-10, e6400.
Band: Godfrey's Cordial
Location: Tacoma
Contact:

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:35 pm

Despite my constant analog ranting, I've always been a big fan of samplers and sampler technology.

Alas, I also prefer hardware... which has me asking a lot of the same questions about sampling hardware as some others. I totally agree with piron!

I am fully aware that computers corner the market as far as samplers go. I mean, you can't compete with gigabytes of RAM and drive space at all. I'm still limping along with my pathetic e6400, and used my EPS-16+ for a decade before that. I have certainly dabbled with software based samplers, and loved what they did... BUT:

I don't know how many hardware people I am going to try to speak for here, but:
I am not going to be using software sampling professionally any time soon, and here is why. A computer is an added layer of interface between you and the musical instrument. A computer makes the demands of the computer atop the demands of the software, and you end up having to work through TWO different instruments. Not only that, but I don't have a laptop. For my computer to get involved, it means my computer work and my musical work have to overlap. And, although I have two computers, both of them are set up to do things OTHER than music... and introducing serious music software and connections to systems which are doing other things has traditionally resulted in conflict for me. So... I'm faced with buying another computer, and THEN the software, and then having to submit to the needs and wants of the computer atop the needs and wants of the software, connections, etc. With all of those intermediary steps between creative thought and output, it adds up to distaste for me. : )

I'm sure it's diferent for people who have always set up their music through their computer, though.

With the leaps and bounds made in sampler technology/software in the last 5 years... would it be so hard to make a dedicated box? I mean, come on! My stupid mobile phone has a better LCD display than my sampler, and it was FREE.
‎"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -Charles Babbage
"Unity and Mediocrity are forever in bed together." -Zane W.
http://www.youtube.com/automaticgainsay

Naive Teen Idol
Supporting Member!
Supporting Member!
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:14 am
Gear: Roland Jupiter 6, Studio Electronics MIDIMini, DSI Evolver, Linn LM-2 Linndrum, Roland TR-77, Roland GR-300, Novation Remote SL 25

Re: Rant about the lack of modern hardware samplers.

Post by Naive Teen Idol » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:48 pm

So, given all this...should I have my friend give me his Akai S-1000? Or is it not worth the hassle if I'm mostly studio-bound and have a good computer set-up. It would cost me nothing but some closet space (not an insubstantial commodity, mind)...

User avatar
Stab Frenzy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9723
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:41 pm
Gear: Eurorack, RYTM, Ultranova, many FX
Location: monster island*
Contact:

Re: Rant about the lack of modern hardware samplers.

Post by Stab Frenzy » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:54 am

This thread is 2 and a half years old, most of the people who posted in it are either dead or in jail by now.

I think the answer to your question is that if he's giving it to you there's no reason not to take it, if you don't like using it you can always just give it back.

User avatar
balma
Synth Explorer
Synth Explorer
Posts: 2849
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:52 pm
Real name: Mauricio
Gear: DSI Tempest/Prophet 08/Roland V-Synth/Ensoniq Fizmo/E-mu MP7-XL7/Electribe ESX1/Radias/Waldorf MicroQ
Location: Costa Rica

Re: Rant about the lack of modern hardware samplers.

Post by balma » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:54 pm

Hardware samplers are my favorite MUSICAL instruments.


In certain point samplers stopped being considered as musical instruments,, and now they are like a f**k application you run on your computer.

Sampling is so beatiful. Sounds are everywhere, you just have to pick them, collect them.


I mean, I would love to see technology evolving more into the hardware samplers, than into computers.


I have a V synth, LOVE IT for its advanced sampler functions more than for its VA section, and its hability to format samples according to its application (solo, ensemble)

However, I hate that I cannot layer multiples samples on it. That's its worst lack. You cannot create complex sounds with multiple samples. Only 2 per voice. That sucks a big time.


Also, I have an EX5, this thing can mangle samples in a great way, however, it does not have varyphrase, so sounds cannot be spreaded along the scale like the Vsynth.

Have a Electribe ESX1, and I love how easy can you manipulate samples for dance music on stage. However, not too good for studio, sound engine is pretty simple, and polyphony is c**p.

In certain way, there's not a sampler on the market that satisfies my needs.

want more hardware samplers

I am a costumer and a music producer, and I DON'T LIKE to use computers as musical instruments. I prefer devices made specifically for that purpose. I use computers but for managing and storaging information of my synths, to have .wav databases, for saving my sequences, for traslating files from one synth to another.
But I don't like them to make music.

there are so many things that I would like on a hardware sampler:

to sample at 12, 16 and 24 bits.

big storage capability.

hability to layer multiple samples into a single patch, (at least 4 at the same time)

Easy manipulation (copy, paste, erase, merge, etc) of the samples on its database. Having some way to classify samples on categories.

Cool effects section.

Nice communication with the PC...

Fast processes.


Is that too much to ask on a single box???

Problem is, there are a lot of lazy producers, that just want to buy a CD of samples on Ebay, put it on the computer, load it and that's all.

I don't like to purchase samples. they are stealing me the funniest task: making samples!

sampling is so, so so fun. What can be more creative than making your own sounds, to collect them from your surroundings, or your other instruments??? where's the curiosity, the creativity?


I just can't understand. And I know, there are a lot of people, that can't understand me, for being so pissed off with the actual tendence of sampling going into the computer area.
His sex dungeons are rumored to hold hundreds of people in secret locations around the world.
https://soundcloud.com/balma

User avatar
Dj Pound
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 2:34 am
Gear: Korg ESX-1
Korg EMX-1
Korg ES-1
Microkorg
Akai MPC-2000XL
Boss Br-532

Re: Rant about the lack of modern hardware samplers.

Post by Dj Pound » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:58 pm

I agree with you on the sample CD's Balma =D>


The "hunt" or the quest, as I like to call it, is atleast 75% of the fun when it comes to hunting down sample material particularly on vinyl. Its like a rush or a state of euphoria when you find that beat or break on a unsuspecting looking record that you bought for a dime or a dollar :mrgreen:
I just cant get that sense of joy from downloading an MP3 or ripping a torrent, or for that matter from CD's!
Thats just my preference though, by all means use whatever you have at your disposal to make your musical vision a reality.
Korg ESX-1
Korg EMX-1
Korg ES-1
Microkorg
Akai MPC-2000XL
Boss Br-532

Hugo76
Expert Member
Expert Member
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Rant about the lack of modern hardware samplers.

Post by Hugo76 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:02 pm

@ balma:
I too have a V-Synth, and love it. Anyways, why don't you get a workstation of some sorts? You should be able to pick up a secondhand Triton at a nice price now. Maybe an M3 or Fantom X if you have the cash (I'd stay away from the Motifs due to the lack of such things as loop crossfade).

Post Reply