Sample behavior across the keyboard

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briandc
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Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by briandc » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:06 am

Hi all,
I would like to ask a question about sampling:

usually, when playing back a sample (let's say it's a sample of a voice saying "I love you"), the speed of the sample and the frequency of the sample change, depending on the key played.

But what if I want the speed to stay the same, so that the words "I love you" are not all run together at the high end, or smeared in the low end? (But still allowing the frequency to change.)

Also, is there a name for this type of control?

Any help appreciated!

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by pflosi » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:09 am

It is called Roland V-Synth :thumbright:

On a more serious note, it's the Roland Variphrase or, more generally, timestretch technology.

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by madtheory » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:59 am

Also in Kontakt, there's Time Machine. Not as lovely as V-Synth, although it does some things the Roland doesn't (not much).

Another old trick is with the Yamaha SPX90. The pitch shifter responds to MIDI, so you can set your sampler to not transpose and let the pitch shifter do it instead. Only an octave up or down IIRC What is really cool sounding is letting the sampler transpose as normal, but reverse the pitch tracking on the SPX, then you get quite scary sounding time stretching on voices :)

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by briandc » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:20 am

Hi guys,
thanks for your help. Ironically, I was looking at some V-synth vids just yesterday! :)
And, although I purchased a Motif back in 2001, I don't have it around at the moment to test out, and I couldn't recall if it is capable of doing the time stretching that you mentioned. (But I don't think it can, although it can stretch the sample time of the initial sampled file.)
As the V-synth came out a couple of years later, my hunch is that this was the newest technology of the time. ?

So now I'm on the lookout for where to obtain this type of effect within the realm of linux. Petri-Foo is a very powerful sampler application-- you can layer sample upon sample, each with its own setup: single-shot, loop, reverse, etc, as well as keyboard note range, lots of assignable envelopes, etc. However, it doesn't have this time stretch ability. -If only a were a programmer!!

Anyway, if it's not out there yet, I'm sure it will be soon. I just gotta dig a bit! :)


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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by madtheory » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:33 pm

There has to be a MIDI controlled pitch shifter VST you can use?

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by briandc » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:33 pm

madtheory wrote:There has to be a MIDI controlled pitch shifter VST you can use?
It would appear so:
Image

Now to find out how to use one of them...!


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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by Baus » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:51 pm

The first time I did timestretching was in 1997/98 with my Akai S3000XL sampler.

Nowadays I can do it, just for fun, on my 1990 Ensoniq EPS-16 Plus Samplers with the additional Time Dicer effect.

Roland later came out with the Vari-phrase technology in the VP-9000 and then later came the V-Synths.

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by briandc » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:55 am

I'm still not exactly sure as to how to implement pitch shifting.
To get an idea of it:
I have my midi controller, which sends note signals to the sampler. The sampler produces a waveform in length depending on the frequency assigned to each midi note on the keyboard.
So how do I make the sampler send the sample at the right frequency, but always at the same note length?

With pitch shifting, it takes the same sample waveform and shifts it only in frequency, right? So the pitch shifter must be a type of sampler itself, where the initial sample is loaded directly?


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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by madtheory » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:56 pm

Pitch shifter slices the waveform in real time. Basically removing slices to speed it up, and repeating slices to slow it down. Well there is a short processing delay.

You need to set the sampler to not transpose at all. The pitch shifter then does the transposing, so the length never changes, triggered by your MIDI.
Last edited by madtheory on Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by colmon » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:28 pm

This is where granular synthesis excels, I think.

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by ninja6485 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:43 am

The pitch shifting on some of my samplers is like timestretch: you process the sample in the desired way, and then you get a new sample. Some of those pitch shift programs might work the same way, and if they do, you might have to make one for each note
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by briandc » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:53 pm

madtheory wrote:Pitch shifter slices the waveform in real time. Basically removing slices to speed it up, and repeating slices to slow it down. Well there is a short processing delay.

You need to set the sampler to not transpose at all. The pitch shifter then does the transposing, so the length never changes, triggered by your MIDI.
Ok; so I guess I need to explore this a bit more.

@colmon: how so?


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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by madtheory » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:34 pm

colmon wrote:This is where granular synthesis excels, I think.
A pitch shifter IS granular synthesis. Is colmon trolling us again? :|

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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by meatballfulton » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:13 am

Since there are analog pitch shifters, you obviously don't need granular processing to do it. Certainly the sort of time and pitch shifting first seen in Acid and Live and now every DAW under the sun is based on granular processing.

The latest version of Live's Simpler sampler (say that three times fast) now has warping built in so you can load a single sample and play it up and down about an octave before the artifacts get totally out of hand.
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Re: Sample behavior across the keyboard

Post by pflosi » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:31 am

What analog pitch shifters are there? Apart from speeding tape up / down? I don't know any.

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