KAWAI K4 + Q80

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KAWAI K4 + Q80

Postby coyote999 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:44 pm

Looking for a little advice. Recently hauled the K4+Q80 out of the closet. However, for some reason I can't get it to record properly. Pretty sure it's me and I suspect it will be something simple. Basically, I can record from K4 to Q80 (setting channel/track) but when I go to do track 2 while playing back track 1, the first track won't stay on the original patch but instead changes over to the new patch chosen for track 2. Somehow, I am not registering the patch info on the Q80 and I don't know if that is something I'm failing to do at the K4 end or the Q80 end. Have read all the manuals I have, to no avail. It's kind of old tech, but any advice appreciated. Thanks.
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Re: KAWAI K4 + Q80

Postby blueknob » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:15 am

I have a K4 and want a Q80 so give it to me! :lol: No, seriously, to receive on different channels and play "multitimbral" I believe the K4 needs a "Multi" setup accordingly. There is a Multi template and full description available on the net (maybe from Kawai) that explains how to do it.
Mine seems to receive drums on channel 10 no matter what the synth is set to, so as a test maybe try that. I tend to cheat and use SoundDiver to make my Multis which makes things really simple, as the K4 is a "menu diver" device.

Hopefully here is a screenshot of the K4 Multi editor showing all that needs to be set up... drat, it's not worked.

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=2ng4okw" target="_blank"><img src="http://i67.tinypic.com/2ng4okw.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a> ...nope that didn't work either.


Image

phew! that one did, I had to "join" tinypic, upload up into that, then cut and paste the url for the image. I thought it was easier than that!

Anyway, my Multi is called Heart&Soul, I have BassComp3 on midi channel 1 for a octave C1-C2, playable on the keyboard, directed to FX output 1. Then I have ))planet(( on midi channel 2 for the rest of the keyboard, D2 upwards, again playable on the keyboard, directed to FX buss B. Everything else is muted.
Note the Mode selector, I could have the remaining 6 sounds allocated to different midi channels and in Mode have them midi only so I could drive them using the Q80 whilst I noodled live on the keyboard, plus I think still have the drums on ch 10.

The K4 is all menus and button pressing which makes editing like this a slow confusing process, this editor makes it really easy.
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Re: KAWAI K4 + Q80

Postby coyote999 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:54 pm

I am still unable to get this to work.
The manuals (and I have all KAWAI ones plus a third party one) are useless.

There are several parts that appear to be required to record to the Q80 and play back while recording another part.

1) K4 must be set to send some patch on some channel
and it appears this must be done as a part of a multi patch
2) Q80 must be set to recieve this channel
3) somehow the information on what patch is being used on this channel must also be sent to the Q80 and stored
4) a different channel must be chosen inside the multi patch and a different single patch assigned to it
5) The Q80 must be configured to receive on the new channel
6) And the information on the new patch/channel combination must be stored on the Q80 as well, etc.

I can find nothing about how to change the single patches used by each channel inside a multi.
I can find nothing about how to store patch info specific to each channel to the Q80

Manuals say things like "the edit button is used to edit".
K4 manual deals with either setup for live play, or editing of patches to get new sounds. Nothing useful for recording to the Q80.
The Q80 manual is written as generic and no info on K4 or assumption that you have one.
I want to record a song with maybe 8 tracks, each with a different instrument.
Anyone know the specifics of how this is accomplished?
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Re: KAWAI K4 + Q80

Postby blueknob » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:51 am

Yey I've now got me a Q80 thanks to ebay :D So now I can address some of your confusions, firstly make sure you have the 216 page Q80 manual, the smaller version is not that easy to follow.

I found it a hassle getting the K4 + Q80 to work, but it does and very well. In the K4 manual see page 83, for some clues.

Getting the K4 to play different “instruments” indeed does need a MULTI set up similar to my revised pik shown below, however it requires the sounds to be set up beforehand.

So as a starting point I suggest use one instrument in the K4 say, piano on midi ch 1 (SINGLE mode), the drums are available all the time so try just getting those two to work. Check the drums are on ch 10 and the K4 TRS and RCV are ch 1 (local on - just to keep it simple)
My first experiment would be to record different drums on different tracks just to get know how it all works.

I also found, although it is possible to do all sequencer programming using the K4 in local off mode as described in the manual, I found it much easier using another midi controller keyboard. So I use, midi keyboard (variable channel) -> Q80 midi in, Q80 midi out -> K4. See p 37 of Q80 manual.

There is a tutorial on the Q80 manual at around page 41. But here’s a few pointers.
(Refer to the Q80 manual) p36 - need to set the midi thru mode, I set mine to THRU

Basic record procedure p46

Set midi channels as p47 - or at least confirm they are the default ones, so Track 10 should be set to ch 10, you may want to set Tracks 11, 12, 13, 14 to ch 10 too so we can use them for drums. See p58

What should be available now is, set the external keyboard to ch 10, it should play the drums in the K4. Set the external keyboard to ch1, it now should play the “piano” in the K4. It’s all set up as a Thru box.

Now comes a little bogey, to record motifs requires SYSTEM CHANNEL set to the incoming midi channel, see p 113 - not doing a motif, skip this.

That I think should get your Q80 to record. Try just recording bass drum on Track 10 (midi ch 10), snare on Track 11 (also set to midi ch 10, Hi Hat on Track 12 (also set to midi ch 10) etc.

Now when you get to the K4, that gets confusing, it will need a MULTI programmed up. There are instructions for that, looking at my pik, I’ve modified my Heart&Soul MULTI for the Q80. Notice under MODE I have set to Mix, note also how I have set the range of the keyboard. It means I have an octave of BassComp3 on midi ch 1, the rest of the keyboard is ))planet(( on midi ch 2. Note this mode allows the instrument to be played either by the incoming midi or by the keyboard.
Mode could also be set to Midi meaning incoming midi only. See p63 of the K4 manual.

Setting up the K4 for this use is a bit of a faff, have to say having SoundDiver helps a lot as there’s quite a bit of back-and-forth.

Anyway hope that gives you some clues.




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Re: KAWAI K4 + Q80

Postby coyote999 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:36 am

Thank you blueknob for your detailed response.
But I seem to be no closer.
If I may, I would like to go through a few parts to show where I'm hung up and if you have the time or inclination, help is appreciated.

Q80:
Looking at TRACK CH - all are set to default 1-16=1-16
Looking at SYSTEM CHANNEL = 1
MONITOR shows keyboard sending on 1

K4:
LOCAL = ON (unsure how I would operate with it off- can't hear anything with it off)
SYSTEM TRS=1 RSV-1
MULTI chosen (C4)
EDIT Mode
INST = shows Piano on Channel 1 and Viola on channel 2, etc
SEC Channel=RCV Channels are set to sequential 1-8

I have only the K4- so I cannot use it as slave to another keyboard.
When I play the keyboard- I hear the piano
Trouble is, I ALWAYS hear the piano in this setup

The instructions in the manual for programing MULTI's is not for recording.
It is for 1) Altering the sounds or 2) Splitting the keyboard

I can in fact record from the K4
let's say to track 1 of Q80
I can play it back = piano

BUT:
It will only play back as whatever patch is chosen at the moment.
And while I can set it to play back the piano by chosing the piano patch before playing it- I cannot configure the K4 to allow me to play and hear a different instrument while the Q80 is playing back the piano.
If I change nothing I am still playing piano again- if I change to another inst then the PLAYBACK changes also and I am hearing my piano track as a viola, etc.
So the Q80 is not storing the patch info as it should and I am unable to layer tracks.
(I have old sample songs which, when played, you can see the Q80 download the patch before starting play)

None of this is right-
I should be able to play an inst and record it
then switch inst and record the second one on the next track while listening to the first one, etc.

I am about to the point of chucking it in the trash and buying a modern one.

Thanks.
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Re: KAWAI K4 + Q80

Postby blueknob » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:48 am

Your set up seems ok, I think I can see where the confusion arises. It's to do with TRS midi channel.

I'd still suggest, start off with just using a Single, we'll get to Multis later. Set K4 Local to off. That disconnects the K4 keyboard from it's internal synth. So now you have a keyboard contoller and a sound module. Midi channel is now what controls operation.

Q80: System, Monitor should now as you say, show activity on Midi channel 1, so far so good. Set Q80's midi thru as I mentioned above. Check that when you play the keyboard you hear the K4 piano (or whatever you selected).
Now also, on the K4 set the midi TRS channel to 10, you should now hear the K4's drums play, check System, Monitor channel 10 is showing (input). This proves to you the Q80 is receiving midi data on that channel, this is useful when programming things up. As you step thru the midi channels you should see their numbers come up in the Q80's display, this is a good sign.

Before going any further, make sure you can get that to work. (Check the K4 drums are on the default midi ch 10)

Can you get that to work first, then we'll set up a Multi. Having a read of your problems, yes they can all be sorted, it's just learning how the system works. Do first try with a Single. Program changes are recorded by a different process. Multis are a little awkward to set up.
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Re: KAWAI K4 + Q80

Postby coyote999 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:48 pm

Yeehah! Thanks blueknob!

K4:
Using a SINGLE patch
TRS=1
RCV=1
LOCAL=OFF

Q80:
MONITOR shows 1
SYSTEM ECHO=THRU (this is why I couldn't hear anything before when I set LOCAL =off)

I can record track 1 on Q80 as piano
reset K4 TRS to 10
Q80 MONITOR = 10
set track 1 to play
set track 2 to record
I can record track 2 as drums while hearing piano

I can play back both tracks and hear both drums and piano

===========================
good so far. MUCH closer.
(If I turn off the K4 and turn back on again- when I play the song from the Q80- all has been lost however. Drums still play as drums, but other instruments are not retained. So still no patch info stored.)
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Re: KAWAI K4 + Q80

Postby blueknob » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:47 am

Yey! Thing to notice this system in "controlled" by the midi send channel as selected by the K4 keyboard, think of it as a big single selector switch. The proof of the concept is when changing K4 TRS to 10 drives the drums in the K4.

To make full use of the K4 we now need a Multi. Start with a simple Multi of say 3 different sounds. Usually I find the sounds I want upfront, say IC-3,IA-2, IB-12 (write them down) then over to my target Multi. Getting it all programmed up is a menu diving hassle, see my two screenshots above for what needs to be set, there are many "gotchas".

In our example set the midi channels thus:
midi channel 1 - IC-3
midi channel 2 - IA-2
midi channel 3 - IB12

Now when you go play the K4 keyboard, simply by changing TRS (midi send channel) you should be able to play each of the three sounds.
Again use System, Monitor (input) to confirm midi data is being sent on those channels. And that’s about it.

With regards wanting the Q80 to select the program, requires a Program Change code to be programmed in, see p 155 of the Q80 manual.
This is something I've not done myself, here’s a few things to note. I've just done a check on what codes the K4 sends for program change, it could need 3 separate Program Change codes, one for: Multi or Single, then another for A,B,C,D, and a third for 1-16

The K4 needs its program change parameters setting too for any of this to work, so over to System/midi - TRS - TRS PGM and set that to ON, and same again for receive, RCV PGM, looking at the options it might need a look in the manual but would think NORM would be a good choice.

As for programming these codes in, I’d try record on say track 1 and the press the three K4 buttons in sequence: Multi - A - 2 (example) so the Q80 captures these 3 separate midi codes, then play music on bar two (probably hide them under a count-in/off bar).
I guess it is possible to Step record the three codes too but you will need to know what they are, will need a midi monitor tool like MidiOx.

I find setting up and using a hardware sequencer is close to programming computers, there are so many “switches” hiding away that can take an age to find, when changing that Off to an On suddenly gets everything working!
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