Using SubZero KSA MIDI Controller for NRPN?

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Rumbler101
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Using SubZero KSA MIDI Controller for NRPN?

Post by Rumbler101 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:19 pm

Hi,

https://d1aeri3ty3izns.cloudfront.net/m ... 266867.pdf

I've had a read of this manual but I'm unsure as to whether there is any suitable way for me to control the NRPN messages of the Sub 37. It's not clear in the manual, but there does seem to be an option for NRPN in there by selecting it with the keys.

I'm looking to control "ARP SYNC" as specified in the Sub 37 manual:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Also, I am using an "Alesis MMT-8" as my sequencer, any idea on whether this can also record NRPN messages?

Thanks.

Side-note: If I can't use this controller, what can I use to control and record NRPN messages?

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meatballfulton
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Re: Using SubZero KSA MIDI Controller for NRPN?

Post by meatballfulton » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:51 pm

NRPN messages are just a set of CC messages; two CCs are used for the NRPN number, two for the 14 bit data values. If the MMT-8 can record CCs, it can record NRPNs sent from the Sub 37.

Using your SubZero controller to send NRPNs would be difficult at best, since it requires controlling four CCs. It doesn't appear to support sending NRPNs with a single control (other than the preset ones from 132 to 143 which are used for General MIDI devices).
I listened to Hatfield and the North at Rainbow. They were very wonderful and they made my heart a prisoner.

Rumbler101
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Re: Using SubZero KSA MIDI Controller for NRPN?

Post by Rumbler101 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:27 am

Alright cool.

So, even though we've reached the conclusion of my MIDI controller being primitive for NRPN, can you show me an example of how I would use an NRPN message on this controller (as well as RPN)? You know more than I do and the manual is extremely vague.

Thanks.

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meatballfulton
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Re: Using SubZero KSA MIDI Controller for NRPN?

Post by meatballfulton » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:36 pm

Here is a how-to article that explains it. As you can see, since four CCs are involved, using the knobs on your controller to do this would be very tricky. The article shows how to do it with msgs entered in your sequencer, which might be a better way to go.

I noticed that the parameter you wish to control, ARP Sync, has only 2 values..on and off. Using an NRPN (which supports over 16,000 values) for this is total overkill. Moog is only using an NRPN because they have more parameters in the synth than there are available CC numbers (a maximum of 128). You can probably get this to work from your controller's knobs but it will be very clumsy.

1. Set the controls R1 to CC 99, R2 to CC 98, R3 to CC 6 and R4 to CC 38. R1 now controls the MSB of the NRPN number, R2 now controls the LSB. R3 now controls the data MSB and R4 now controls the data LSB.

2. Set R1 to 3, then set R2 to 19 as indicated in the Moog manual. (3 x 128) + 19 = 403, but the NRPN number shown in the table is 404. This indicates that Moog counts all hexadecimal values starting at 1, not 0.

3. Now you have to set R3 and R4. My guess is that R3=0 and R4 changing from 0 to 1 will switch the arp sync on and off but you will have to experiment. You could try connecting the Moog to the MMT-8 MIDI IN and then start recording a sequence while you switch the arp sync on and off. Then in the MMT-8 editor, see what values were sent for CCs 6 and 38. Those are the values you must set R3 and R4 to.

4. As long as you do not touch R1 and R2, any changes made to R3 and R4 will control the arp sync. That is because until a new NRPN number is sent, the Moog will remeber what NRPN has been selected until a new one is received. So once you have set R1 and R2, do not touch them, then you can use R3 and R4 to turn the sync on and off until you power down. Every time you power up the Moog you will need to go through the procedure again.

Once you get this to work, you might consider creating two short sequences in your MMT-8. One would simply turn arp sync on and the other would set arp sync off. You can also imbed the same data into any songs you create on the MMT-8 where you want the arp sync to be controlled, and in fact you can do this for any other NRPNs that are used for switches (like the other ARP modes).

Try both methods and see which one makes sense for you to use.

Good luck.
I listened to Hatfield and the North at Rainbow. They were very wonderful and they made my heart a prisoner.

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Re: Using SubZero KSA MIDI Controller for NRPN?

Post by Rumbler101 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:02 am

Cheers mate.

I was given this a few weeks ago, so if anyone on the web is looking at this, you can use this formula to calculate the MSB or the LSB for all 4 CCs... an example:
403 (value of the decimal number for parameter or the value itself) / 128 = 3.1484375; take 3 (MSB).
0.1484375 (remainder of the MSB part above) * 128 = 19 (LSB).

Although, it's way easier than doing maths and just taking the "MIDI OUT" from my Sub 37 and then just putting it into the "IN" of my MMT-8; then hitting record at the right time whilst using the click from the MMT-8 :lol:.

Do you have an example of RPN? I suspect that is much easier.

Thanks.

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