Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

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SKINNYPIG
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Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by SKINNYPIG » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:17 pm

Hi there; long time listener first time caller!
I’ve recently reacquired my tr707 after an extended loan to a friend (about 5yrs!) and can’t for the life of me get it to synk with my 606 :cry: .

When in master mode the 707 will trigger the sequencer on the 606 but only when the 606 is also set to master but it won’t adopt the 707’s tempo (when the 606 is in slave mode it doesn’t do anything).

When the 707 is set to slave mode and the 606 is set to master I hit play on the 606 the first light on the 707’s sequencer comes on but nothing happens!

As far as I can tell the 707 is still able to act as a midi slave; it accepts both start/stop commands and tempo from my little MFB sequencer.

I’m sure I’m using the correct lead (midi cable with all five pins active) and it worked perfectly 5 yrs ago, from what I remember it was super easy to set up and fairly idiot proof!

My gut feeling is that something is fried but it’s impossible to tell which of the two machines is playing up as they are the only machines I own with Dinsynk!

Anyhow, if anyone has any suggestions I’d be super grateful!

P.S. I’m not sure if it makes any difference but 606 is currently running from batteries (both wall warts and power outlets are at a premium at the moment!)

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by Solderman » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:53 pm

Only thing I can suggest is spend the dough or borrow a Midi to Din-Sync converter, then try slaving each from it with your cable. I don't know why the 606 would act as Din Sync slave in Master mode, but that sounds like a malfunction. Better to first see if it does the same thing with a different sync source. Get a Boss PSA-120/220 wall wart for the 606 too. It's worth it.
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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by nathanscribe » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:53 pm

Solderman wrote: I don't know why the 606 would act as Din Sync slave in Master mode, but that sounds like a malfunction.
From what the OP describes, I'd say it isn't - it's running at its own tempo when set to Master, as expected.

First, I'd check the cable with a continuity tester/multimeter etc. If you can try more than one cable, do so. I don't know anything about the 707, but I'd double-check the instructions on this. Also check your connections for solidity. I sometimes have trouble with various old Boss/Roland kit triggering when on batteries, so if you can lend the 606 a PSU for a test, all the better. I'd agree with Solderman about testing a different sync unit if you're able.

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by SKINNYPIG » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:28 pm

thanks! I'll pick up a new PSU straight after work and see what happens.
fingers crossed!

if this fails there was a guy on ebay selling home made dinsynk to midi boxes for next to nothing; I'll try and get my hands on one of those.

thanks agian

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by sqweebking » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:12 am

I remember having a similar issue last time I did this. IIRC, I had better luck using the 606 as master and 707 as slave. But the 707 has to already be in pattern play mode, or needs to be powered up after the 606. or something. Sorry I dont have better info for you but I dont have either unit in front of my right now. Keep trying though, all I know is the 707 is kind of funky to sync, and the order in which you turn things on/set to play has to do with it.

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by edfunction » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:32 am

definitely try out some other cables, that usually helps.
one thing i often forget on my 606 is that you have to have a pattern selected (i think 606 has to be master for this) before you set it to slave. it can be tricky to get it set up.
i don't have a 707 anymore so i can't say for sure, but i'll echo and say that you should check the manual and set it up as described and it may be that it doesn't send or recieve in certain modes (ie, pattern-write, pattern-play...)

don't know if that helps....

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by SKINNYPIG » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:51 am

Ok….. I’ve tried several leads and the 606 has a nice new PSU but I have failed miserably to appease the gods of synchronization. :cry:
My spider senses are telling me that it’s the 606 that’s at fault as it won’t let me select patterns when it’s in slave mode (is this normal? I can’t remember!)

The 707s manual (as with most Roland manuals from the mid 80s) is next to useless! But I’m confident everything is set up correctly as I used to do this all the time (using the 707 to synk the 606 with my computer)

As to where I go from here I have an aversion to spending money on gear that doesn’t make any cool noises ;) so I’m a bit loathed to shell out for a midi to synk box and was wondering if I could use a Novation Drum-Station to do the same job?? I mean it has midi and some kind of dynsynk capability right?

Once I’ve ascertained 100% which one of the machines is playing up dose anyone know of anywhere where I can take it to get repaired (I’m based in London)

Thanks again!

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by Solderman » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:43 pm

When you place the 606 in slave mode, if it is not receiving any sync signals at all, its pattern light will stay either on or off. As soon as it receives 24ppq clocks(not 'start' mind you), the pattern light should begin blinking. You should still be able to change patterns in slave mode without a sync connection, you just can't use the Run/Stop button. That the normal behavior, for comparison.

I'm not sure what would happen if the Run/Stop pedal jack was defective, because I removed it when I modded my 606 8 years ago.
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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by cornutt » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:06 pm

Solderman wrote: I'm not sure what would happen if the Run/Stop pedal jack was defective, because I removed it when I modded my 606 8 years ago.
Knowing the way most Roland stuff works, it'll probably think that a footswitch is plugged in and you are holding it down. I can see where that would cause problems with the logic. Try plugging a patch cord or some such into the jack. Wrap some bare copper wire or aluminum foil or some such around the plug at the other end such that it shorts the tip and sleeve. See if that makes a difference.
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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:00 pm

a personal experience with the same drum machines and midi cables: i bought 2 sets of midi cables new, one black with plastic ends (hosa i think), and the other with metal ends that are george's music brand. nothing with sync can use the george's music cables: I have to use the hosa. i did buy a 3pack of multi colored midi cables from radioshack that worked fine as well. i bought an msq-100 dirt cheap that works perfectly as a midi/sync converter. and it sequences :D
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by nathanscribe » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:52 pm

That's because MIDI officially only uses 3 pins, whereas regular 5-pin DIN leads use all 5. Many so-called MIDI leads are wired as the DIN standard, not to MIDI spec. DIN Sync is so (wrongly) called as it uses a 5-pin DIN connection, that's all. Really it should be called Sync 24 or Sync 48 or whatever protocol is being used, as there's more than one that uses a DIN connector. DIN just stands for Deutsche Industrie Normale or something, it's a set of standards, and is nothing to do with what manufacturers do with those connectors once they've bought a few thousand of them... another aspect is that Sync 24, for example, is not a fixed protocol anyway; three pins are used, different ones to the MIDI spec defines, but sometimes an extra fourth pin is employed and they are not always used for the same things, so there's not always compatibility between Synced devices.

tl;dr: not all MIDI cables will work as sync leads.

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by gmeredith » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:43 am

Yes I was about to mention that also - it has different wiring for sync. I discovered that same issue using my Korg DDM110 drum machine and TB303. My MIDI leads wouldn't work - I had to make up my own sync cables for it to work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_Sync

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by RetroSynthAds » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:50 am

Hi there,

I have my 606 and 707 in front of me, along with a good DIN cable and a MIDI cable.

Based on my tests, I think the problem may be your 707 DIN connector... here's why:

Situation 1: 606 slave/707 master
both units initially turned off
Switch 606 DIN sync to input, turn on.
Turn on 707 - automatically set to send sync signal
Hit start on 707 - 606 syncs perfectly.
As you mentioned, idiot-proof.


Situation 2: 707 slave/606 master

both units initially turned off
Switch 606 DIN sync to output, turn on.
Turn on 707, hit shift/sync mode once to set sync slave mode (S-d appears on screen)
Hit run button on 606, 707 syncs fine.

So, then decided to try a MIDI cable to see if I got your "First light on" issue.

But, when I used the MIDI cable, no lights came on the 707, and 707 didn't run of course.

But then, after fiddling back and forth with the MIDI and DIN cables, I realized I could recreate your "first light on" issue if I had a MIDI cable in place, was hitting the Track and Pattern buttons on the 707 back and forth repeatedly, then stopped the 606, changed cable to a DIN cable, and then hit play on the 606. Then I got the 707 "first light on" issue. It didn't happen all the time, but I could recreate it quick frequently.

It was like the start/stop signal got to the 707 (so the first light comes on), but the clock signal wasn't making it to the machine so it got stuck on the first beat (first light stays on). Maybe it shorted out one of the PINs on the 707?

THEN, here is where it gets really interesting.

I set both units to be Master.
When I hit the Run button the 606, only the 606 played (makes sense).
But when I hit the Start button the 707, BOTH UNITS PLAYED. They were not in sync, but if I turned the tempo dial on the 707 up, the 606 would speed up (but still not in sync). If I turned it down, the 606 would slow down similarly.

AHA! So, maybe this is normal behavior.

To test, I plugged the 707 into my 808. Set both to master, and sure enough - hit the start button the 707 and the 808 started playing, out of sync. Move the tempo dial on the 707 and it affected the 808 tempo the same way that it affected the 606.

So, as far as you thought was a problem due to your Master/Master issue - this seems to be "normal" in Roland's world :)

Here's a summary of what we know.

1. When both set as master, the 707 can send start/stop signal to 606. This appears to be normal, so I'm going to loosely assume the start/stop signal on the 707 is working fine. Clock signal isn't needed because the 606 uses its internal clock because it thinks it is a master.

2. When 606 is master, and 707 is slave, the first light on the 707 lights up, making me believe that a start signal is getting to the 707, but because a clock signal isn't getting to the 707, it can't keep going - gets hung up on that first beat - light stays on above the first button.

3. When 606 is slave, and 707 is master - I don't know enough, but it could be that start/stop is getting to the unit (which we know it is in master mode), but if a clock signal can't get through the connector, it wouldn't play - which is what is happening.

So, could it be PIN 1 (start/stop) on the 707 is working, but PIN 3 (clock) isn't working?

I'm not a DIN sync expert... but hope that helps in at least giving you an idea as to what should be happening between the 606/707.

End note (since someone else mentioned it): on the 707 you have to set the sync type when the 707 is set to track mode. If you are in pattern mode, you can't set or change the sync. But, once set in track mode, you can change to pattern and it will keep the sync mode you have selected.
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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by nathanscribe » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:26 am

Now that's what I call a reply. If only the quality was always like this...

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Re: Dinsynk conundrum (606 and 707)

Post by SKINNYPIG » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:00 pm

Thanks again for all the responses!

Hopefully it is indeed just a case of the machines not being able send/receive all the necessary signals due to a dodgy connection somewhere in the chain.
I’ll buy a couple of 5pin din heads and solder up a cable myself just so that I know that every pin is 100% connected properly and see where that gets me! If there’s no improvement I’ll then look at the sockets on the machines themselves.

Worst case scenario is that the fault is with the 606 (the 707 always has midi to fall back on), the only quote I’ve got for having it looked at is £180 which is way over twice what I paid for it :shock: .

I was initially quite worried that when the 606 is in slave mode and not connected to anything there are no lights on the sequencer and I can’t select any patterns which from what Solderman was saying might not necessarily be anything to worry about.

Thanks again!

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