do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by CS_TBL » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:39 am

orlando56 wrote:Agreed. Your first statement is ironic, though, right? Analog synths, like rock and roll, will never die, and are in fact stronger than ever. They sound good, like tubes do.
I think the issue here isn't quality, but market. And any comparison to Rock 'n Roll will hit the rocks anyway. Rock 'n Roll is the end product, and people don't care how it's made. An analogue component is only a component, the bigger object here is 'the synth'. If enough people are satisfied with how a synth sounds then they couldn't care less what components are inside. If the size of the market shrinks, less analogue synths will be made, and those that *are* being made will be more expensive. That is the analogy with the USB vs MIDI debate. Eventually the market for USB-MIDI will be so big and the market for classic-MIDI will be so small that it'd be barely feasible to support classic-MIDI. And the few who do are forced to raise their price tags...

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Music Maven » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:54 am

samuraipizzacat29 wrote:To suggest that package drop over a usb connection is the cause for midi timing issues is a lack of knowledge of the respective protocols. Midi messages are a few bits whereas the standard usb connection is 400+ mb/s. if the protocol couldn't handle decoding,transferring, and re-encoding a few bits, it wouldn't be used on every device on the planet....
No one is suggesting that the USB protocol isn't capable of "decoding, transferring, and re-encoding a few bits." But it is very easy to "overload" a USB1 bus with traffic from multiple high-bandwidth devices on the same bus.

If you want to educate yourself regarding the complexity of the situation, head over to the Access site and read all about the ludicrous steps one must follow in order to avoid this issue with the Virus T1 (which transfers its data at the slower USB1 speed).

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:27 pm

Music Maven wrote:If you want to educate yourself regarding the complexity of the situation, head over to the Access site and read all about the ludicrous steps one must follow in order to avoid this issue with the Virus T1 (which transfers its data at the slower USB1 speed).
That falls under 'configuring your computer for making music' in my book.

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by nogginj » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:21 pm

Yes I meant that sort of tongue in cheek.

I do think midi will go the way of the analog synth.

As in, it wont go away, it will just shrink / refine itself, and keep warming up with age ;].

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Music Maven » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:31 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:
Music Maven wrote:If you want to educate yourself regarding the complexity of the situation, head over to the Access site and read all about the ludicrous steps one must follow in order to avoid this issue with the Virus T1 (which transfers its data at the slower USB1 speed).
That falls under 'configuring your computer for making music' in my book.
Who wants to spend hours and hours (if not weeks) dicking around with your computer and troubleshooting your setup just to make music? Contrast this with good old MIDI - you plug it in and it works.

That should be the goal. Not this egghead fascination with "configuring" your music computer.

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Nannerfan » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:15 am

btw - define obsolete?

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by DLovas » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:22 am

Nannerfan wrote:btw - define obsolete?
Obsolete as in replaced entirely by a new model - for instance USB1 vs USB2 vs USB3

or perhaps - ipod mini > iphone/ipod touch

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Nannerfan » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:28 am

hhmmm... but you got to realize that not everybody jumps to the next big thing.

People use old things, .. that's not also considering the fact that music is an artform.. .instantly increases the amount of luddites, anoraks, and passionate freaks...

basically, practicality isn't really an issue.. if something new becomes standard,.. they're gonna want it to go backwards (doesn't MIDI to CV/GATE convertors already prove this?).

I guess what I'm asking is, are you asking if MIDI will go away? .. or if something new will finally come along?

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Ashe37 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:42 pm

The Virus Ti problems are Virus Ti related, partly because even the Ti2 is using an ancient USB 1 chipset and it hogs an entire usb connection. the Ti series literally has fits if there is another usb device connected on a hub with it.

There have been various proposed updates to the midi standard itself, and some passed (for cell phones and stuff, which phones hardly even use anymore) but things like upping the data rates and expanding the data numbers beyond 7 bits never really passed.

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by DLovas » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:57 pm

Nannerfan wrote:hhmmm... but you got to realize that not everybody jumps to the next big thing.

People use old things, .. that's not also considering the fact that music is an artform.. .instantly increases the amount of luddites, anoraks, and passionate freaks...

basically, practicality isn't really an issue.. if something new becomes standard,.. they're gonna want it to go backwards (doesn't MIDI to CV/GATE convertors already prove this?).

I guess what I'm asking is, are you asking if MIDI will go away? .. or if something new will finally come along?
Well now that we've been on the subject for a while, and you have raised those points - I now realize that it would not be technically possible for midi interfaces to be completely obsolete - because as you said - cv converters exist for people to use their old gear - and even synths like mine from the mid nineties will require midi interfaces indefinitely (unless somehow modded - although this would be impractical)

I guess now I will revise my question to this - how much longer do you think synths / keyboards will continue being manufactured with the aging MIDI ports on the rear? - just as CV went out of production - I can see new keyboards begin to use USB exclusively (especially in light of USB3)

Sure MIDI interfaces will still be around for the somewhat older synths - but given the new technology, the need for those MIDI cables to be in cooperated in NEW gear is becoming quite unnecessary, no?

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by bouzoukijoe1 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:29 pm

Music Maven wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:
Music Maven wrote:If you want to educate yourself regarding the complexity of the situation, head over to the Access site and read all about the ludicrous steps one must follow in order to avoid this issue with the Virus T1 (which transfers its data at the slower USB1 speed).
That falls under 'configuring your computer for making music' in my book.
Who wants to spend hours and hours (if not weeks) dicking around with your computer and troubleshooting your setup just to make music? Contrast this with good old MIDI - you plug it in and it works.

That should be the goal. Not this egghead fascination with "configuring" your music computer.
+1
frankly I think MIDI is fine. time spent configuring your gear is time lost writing better music. configuration is a big waste of time.
although I think some people genuinely enjoy it because it's easier to constantly mess with your gear than try to learn how to improve your music. we all procrastinate at one point or another.
DLovas wrote: Sure MIDI interfaces will still be around for the somewhat older synths - but given the new technology, the need for those MIDI cables to be in cooperated in NEW gear is becoming quite unnecessary, no?
I think it would be a terrible move to phase out MIDI because so much MIDI gear is still being used. this is one of the reasons I never buy synths that only have USB. let's say your computer dies and you don't have $500 to replace or repair it. or what if it takes a week to order a new replacement part or board and you have a gig or band practice this weekend? guess what? you're screwed. you can't even rehearse at home until you get your computer fixed.

with MIDI gear, if one instrument fails, it's ok since you can swap it with temporary backup and keep using your setup. most of us will have more than one drum machine, sequencer, and synth. but how many people have backup computers? without a computer, a USB instrument can't really sync with other instruments. until they can invent direct USB to USB communication without reliance on a computer as a mediator, it won't be as good as MIDI.

(and someone please correct me if USB to USB is possible on some instruments)

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Ashe37 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:16 pm

bouzoukijoe1 wrote:
DLovas wrote: Sure MIDI interfaces will still be around for the somewhat older synths - but given the new technology, the need for those MIDI cables to be in cooperated in NEW gear is becoming quite unnecessary, no?
I think it would be a terrible move to phase out MIDI because so much MIDI gear is still being used. this is one of the reasons I never buy synths that only have USB. let's say your computer dies and you don't have $500 to replace or repair it. or what if it takes a week to order a new replacement part or board and you have a gig or band practice this weekend? guess what? you're screwed. you can't even rehearse at home until you get your computer fixed.

with MIDI gear, if one instrument fails, it's ok since you can swap it with temporary backup and keep using your setup. most of us will have more than one drum machine, sequencer, and synth. but how many people have backup computers? without a computer, a USB instrument can't really sync with other instruments. until they can invent direct USB to USB communication without reliance on a computer as a mediator, it won't be as good as MIDI.

(and someone please correct me if USB to USB is possible on some instruments)
And this is a point. Even though various instruments with USB do support acting as a USB host, (mostly keyboard workstations- the M3 and KRONOS are examples) most don't even work as a host for generic ('class compliant') midi devices and thus cant be used to host other (USB-based) instruments.

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by madtheory » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:46 pm

bouzoukijoe1 wrote:Who wants to spend hours and hours (if not weeks) dicking around with your computer and troubleshooting your setup just to make music?
If you want to use technology to make music, then this is a necessary part of your workload. Looks like the solution for the Virus is to dedicate a USB bus to it- pretty simple solution, worthwhile if you like the synth.

Short explanation: Some aspects of technology make some parts of the music making process "easier" but if you want to create quality, original material at the cutting edge, then you gotta work and put up with troubleshooting.

Long example: I'm just listening to the Art of Noise box set, with all the demos. You can actually hear the amount of time and effort they put in. The samples comprising one of their best tracks Moments in Love would take up less than 500k of space on a modern computer (believe me, I checked). The Fairlight could only hold 8 samples at a time and is a pig to use compared to what we have now. So they had to really work on the arrangement, and plan ahead using tape sync. (which is a PITA) so they could use more than 8 samples. They didn't have desk automation for the first album- all those great Lexicon and AMS effects were done live to tape. The finished tracks are compiled from several of these mixing sessions. They spent literally days recording and sampling sounds, and auditioning them in the arrangement. Then they ended up with a three note riff lasting over 7 minutes that is one of the sexiest tracks ever.

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Ashe37 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:05 pm

madtheory wrote:
bouzoukijoe1 wrote:Who wants to spend hours and hours (if not weeks) dicking around with your computer and troubleshooting your setup just to make music?
If you want to use technology to make music, then this is a necessary part of your workload. Looks like the solution for the Virus is to dedicate a USB bus to it- pretty simple solution, worthwhile if you like the synth.
And if you're performing on a laptop, you're likely to only have one USB bus...

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Re: do you think MIDI interfaces are going obsolete?

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:58 am

Music Maven wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:
Music Maven wrote:If you want to educate yourself regarding the complexity of the situation, head over to the Access site and read all about the ludicrous steps one must follow in order to avoid this issue with the Virus T1 (which transfers its data at the slower USB1 speed).
That falls under 'configuring your computer for making music' in my book.
Who wants to spend hours and hours (if not weeks) dicking around with your computer and troubleshooting your setup just to make music? Contrast this with good old MIDI - you plug it in and it works.

That should be the goal. Not this egghead fascination with "configuring" your music computer.
Maybe it takes you weeks to plug your keyboard into one USB bus and your sundry peripherals into another one, I'm not sure. Can't imagine it would take me more than a couple of minutes.

I'm not sure if you're trying to insult everybody who uses a computer to make music by calling them eggheads or if so why you would want to do that.

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