What do you want from Moog?

Discussions about anything analog, digital, MIDI, synth technology, techniques, theories and more.

What do you want from Moog?

1) The exact tone from a previous product in a modern shell and competitive pricing for today.
10
14%
2) A BETTER version of a previous release with more modern options like USB/VST.
2
3%
3) A Moogy product with a different form - Thinner Rack Unit or 61 note keyboard
1
1%
4) A Poly synth- 4 and 8 voices and a limited edition 16 voices.
16
22%
5) RISK: A synth with a brand new tone that does NOT sound similar to anything they have made.
10
14%
6) RISK: A new product like a string synth or filter box.
5
7%
7) A workstation that's part synth, string synth, part theremin and has digital effects.
3
4%
8) Elements from their current (and some past) technology in modular format.
4
5%
9) Something affordable. Single voice, small and um...yeah...affordable.
4
5%
10) Follow KORG and clone a classic piece.
13
18%
11) A total stretch: A drum machine, a sampler- anything that Amos would be involved in.
6
8%
 
Total votes: 74

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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by calaverasgrande » Wed May 28, 2014 7:37 pm

I'm surprised nobody likes my Moog with ___ spaces of Eurorack or Moog with a built in MP201 ideas. I feel like those are flipping home runs and I expect a court case based on myforum posts in the next few years.
Seriously, the MP201 is an amazing gadget, it just suffers from a steep learning curve. I still cannot believe they haven't come out with a cut down version with no gas pedal. It would be cheaper to build, and nearly every single person I have ever seen using one does not put it on the floor anyway. A big ole knob would suit it better. Or a joystick.

AS far as a Moog with built in space for eurorack modules. I am not terribly original here. I simply saw that API makes a mixer (the Box) that has all the neat API mixerness going on, plus it accepts the 500 series module format in a few open spaces. IIRC Tonelux also makes a mixer along these lines I believe?

ps-"• 32 Wavetable based presets" from the description of the new Theremini. Apparently it is a theremin based on the animoog?
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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by pflosi » Wed May 28, 2014 9:31 pm

But you can already get all that. Just not completely in a Moog enclosure.

Moog has shown what they do in terms of modular. The Emerson will be only sold in that particular configuration and no individual modules. The five or so they'll sell that is.

They will stay away from the wild west that is Eurorack.

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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Thu May 29, 2014 10:32 pm

Hallu wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:What the f**k is "analog purity?"

Automatic Gainsay wrote:Also: I am probably the most irritatingly analog person on this forum... :D
Welcome to the forum, Hallu. Maybe you should read the billions of posts by me here in this forum and catch up before you start jumping in.

But since I'm helpful, I'll help you. I'm Marc Doty. I have a synthesizer demonstration YouTube channel where I demonstrate the sound and functionality of vintage analog synthesizers. I do this because I love them. I love how they operate, I love how they sound, I love what they do, and I love how they look. I assert that they inspire creative outcomes, and that by using them, you learn about synthesis, music, and sound better than punching presets on a digital (or even analog) synth. I firmly believe that sounds that are acoustic, or share more traits with acoustic sound, are inherently more pleasing to the human ear not because of taste, but because of evolution. When people hear a good example of analog synthesis, they think it sounds good. This is, on average, true. Whether that good-sounding thing is an example of something they want in their music is another matter.

I do not assert that ANALOG IS BEST (except that analog is better at sounding analog than non-analog things trying to sound analog). I think vintage (and some modern) analog has the best tone... but not everyone cares about tone. I am not one of the morons who thinks that everything should be analog, that things that aren't analog aren't good, nor that analog sound is "THE BEST" sound. I think analog is wonderful, I think analog devices teach synthesis often better than digital devices, and I like to educate people about traditional synthesis and how it integrates with Electronic Music history.

I'm also the Archive and Education specialist for the Bob Moog Foundation. If you want to talk about Bob Moog, you've found the right guy. Bob Moog was an engineer and made use of a wide variety of technology. If you were able to write an article in the 1970s, you know full-well that no one gave a s**t about "analog" or "digital" sound. People wanted synthesizers that did the things they wanted synthesizers to do. Bob Moog wanted to give people what they wanted, and worked hard and explored technology in order to be able to do so. He delved into digital devices, MIDI, digital synthesis. He worked demonstrating Fairlights. He worked at Kurzweil for a number of years, after Ray Kurzweil hired him to "improve the sound" of the initially-hopelessly-digital-sounding K250. Bob Moog was not some sort of analog fanatic. BUT, in the end, he knew that analog sound was his special gift... and that is why most of his work, and certainly his production devices after 1991 were largely, if not completely, analog.
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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Thu May 29, 2014 10:42 pm

calaverasgrande wrote:Of course a modern Voyager does not sound like a vintage Mini. But seriously the differences are far smaller than the similarities. I do not own a Voyager or an original model D. But I have had both in my studio on extended loan. They are both the same axe as far as I am concerned. The same way a 65 Jazz bass and a 2014 Jazz bass are the same. Sure both are technically different in terms of electrical components and some mechanical changes, but anyone familiar with one, will be at home on the other.
I've owned a Minimoog since about 2002 or so. In the past 3 years, it's been my job to teach people how to use Voyagers, and I've had constant access to them.

See, here's the thing. A sawtooth wave sounds like a sawtooth wave on a lot of devices. I've owned a ridiculous amount of analog synthesizers, and I doubt I could easily discern which made a saw if you tested me. And yeah, a 4 pole low pass filter can sound pretty much like any other 4 pole low pass filter under various circumstances. Come up with a simple patch of a couple of osicillators put through a filter, and yeah... it is really really hard to distinguish a lot of synths from a lot of other synths.

The worst thing you can do as a person who loves synths is then come to the conclusion that "synths sound the same." Because the distinguishing factors of synthesizers AREN'T their similarities, but THEIR DIFFERENCES. You've got a Minimoog... use it. Use it all the time. Love it. Love the sounds it makes. The more you love it, and the more you use it, it starts to train you what to expect from it. You find all of the dark corners and interesting places and you love them. You find the weird things it does... the unique things... and you embrace them. You learn to work with its unique and pleasing sounds to define your music. Now... after you've spent a year doing that... try to find your favorite sounds from the Minimoog on the Voyager. You won't. And if you do, then you didn't dig deep enough.

They are different machines with different functionality. If you're layering a couple of oscillators, adding a low-pass filter, sweeping the filter cutoff and calling it a day... yep, you're right. They're pretty much the same machine. But tonally, operationally, and certainly functionally... they are night and day.

The oscillators are completely different... I can show you this on an oscilloscope. The layout is different... because the technology is utterly different. It is only on the shallowest level that you can say these devices are the same, or even that their tone is the same... because every aspect of the sound that they do, they do differently. The simple fact that you're going to have to tune and retune your Minimoog makes a VERY large difference it its sound.

I just can't fathom it when people compare the two.
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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by calaverasgrande » Thu May 29, 2014 11:45 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote: I just can't fathom it when people compare the two.
I dont know I get it from. Maybe the name on the synths and the name of the company?

It isn't as if we are talking about comparing a Korg 707 and a Yammaha DX7.
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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by Automatic Gainsay » Fri May 30, 2014 5:23 am

calaverasgrande wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote: I just can't fathom it when people compare the two.
I dont know I get it from. Maybe the name on the synths and the name of the company?.
I see. Well, there is some history you need to learn.

1953-1970 Bob Moog had a company he called R. A. Moog. He designed the instruments, and was in charge of their design, intention, and sales.

1971-1973 Bill Waytena bought Bob's company from him, and started making the decisions about how it would be run. Bob no longer had any input in regard to design or company direction. Everything was under Bill's control.

1973-1983 Bill tricked music instrument conglomerate Norlin Music into buying his company by fudging numbers and stockpiling Minimoogs. Norlin kept Moog around because it benefitted from its horribly failing numbers. Instruments that were created had nothing to do with Bob Moog or his history. Bob left the company in 1977 when his stock options matured, bought property in North Carolina, and started his own company, Big Briar. Moog Music, as Bill Waytena had named it, and Norlin kept, kept on.

Bob had no input in regard to Bill Waytena's company, or Norlin's company. Moog Music died in about 1983 or 4, and was continued as an electronics company (largely) by others. It died, completely, in 1993. Moog Music died. It hadn't produced new synthesizers in 10 years, and hadn't been under the direction of Bob Moog since 1970.

Bob Moog continued to do whatever he wanted from 1978-2002. In 2002 he renamed his company Big Briar "Moog Music" because it would really effectively sell his products.

So... um... what were you saying about company names?
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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by madtheory » Fri May 30, 2014 2:28 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:Now... after you've spent a year doing that... try to find your favorite sounds from the Minimoog on the Voyager. You won't. And if you do, then you didn't dig deep enough.
Well Marc, that's a very well made point. Thank you. Well written :) I can't disagree with that because I've never spent that much time with a MiniMoog, much as I'd love to. I totally love the Voyager though... so does that mean I'd end up marrying a MiniMoog?

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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by synthroom » Fri May 30, 2014 3:14 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote: 1971-1973 Bill Waytena bought Bob's company from him, and started making the decisions about how it would be run. Bob no longer had any input in regard to design or company direction. Everything was under Bill's control.
So other than the modular systems and the Minimoog, every other vintage Moog made is not really a Moog since Bob was no longer had any input into the synth designs.
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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by Broadwave » Fri May 30, 2014 3:28 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote: The oscillators are completely different... I can show you this on an oscilloscope. The layout is different... because the technology is utterly different. It is only on the shallowest level that you can say these devices are the same, or even that their tone is the same... because every aspect of the sound that they do, they do differently. The simple fact that you're going to have to tune and retune your Minimoog makes a VERY large difference it its sound.

I just can't fathom it when people compare the two.
Words of wisdom indeed, thank you Marc :)

I'd just like to add that a Voyager can produce perfect 50% square waves, the Minimoog, by it's design can't (yup, that may surprise you all). Without getting to techy, the divider resistors setting pulse width are fixed value low tolerance (5%) you'll probably find that the "square" wave is slightly out of kilter - maybe 46 - 49%. This may seem trivial, but it adds a small amount of high harmonics... mix those 3 VCOs at 32' through an open filter and bam! You're not really going to get that sound from anywhere else.

As an aside... I'll admit that I cheated when I built my "Minimoog" clone - After several failed attempts, I ended up using modified Roland VCOs (!!!). But I spent a lot of time to get the wave outputs right (no linear saw waves here!) and comparing it to several Youtube vids, including Marc's, it sounds pretty good ;)

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Re: What do you want from Moog?

Post by calaverasgrande » Fri May 30, 2014 5:35 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:
calaverasgrande wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote: I just can't fathom it when people compare the two.
I dont know I get it from. Maybe the name on the synths and the name of the company?.
I see. Well, there is some history you need to learn.

1953-1970 Bob Moog had a company he called R. A. Moog. He designed the instruments, and was in charge of their design, intention, and sales.

1971-1973 Bill Waytena bought Bob's company from him, and started making the decisions about how it would be run. Bob no longer had any input in regard to design or company direction. Everything was under Bill's control.

1973-1983 Bill tricked music instrument conglomerate Norlin Music into buying his company by fudging numbers and stockpiling Minimoogs. Norlin kept Moog around because it benefitted from its horribly failing numbers. Instruments that were created had nothing to do with Bob Moog or his history. Bob left the company in 1977 when his stock options matured, bought property in North Carolina, and started his own company, Big Briar. Moog Music, as Bill Waytena had named it, and Norlin kept, kept on.

Bob had no input in regard to Bill Waytena's company, or Norlin's company. Moog Music died in about 1983 or 4, and was continued as an electronics company (largely) by others. It died, completely, in 1993. Moog Music died. It hadn't produced new synthesizers in 10 years, and hadn't been under the direction of Bob Moog since 1970.

Bob Moog continued to do whatever he wanted from 1978-2002. In 2002 he renamed his company Big Briar "Moog Music" because it would really effectively sell his products.

So... um... what were you saying about company names?
Please do not patronize me.
I understand you do a lot of work with the Bob Moog foundation, which I support, but this is not license to talk down to other moog-o-philes.

All that your 'history lesson' illustrates is that Bobs engineering skills far outstripped his business acumen. I'd also like to revisit my indefatigable bass guitar example here. As anyone in the MI knows, Leo Fender sold Fender Musical Instruments to CBS in 1964. Now there are some purist collector types that will argue with, foamy spittle flinging from their hoary lips, that any bass guitar made from 1965 onwards is not a 'real Fender'.
But I disagree, as would likely Mr.Marcus Miller, Mr.Pino Paladino, Mr. Donald "duck" Dunn (RIP) and many other notables that rocked, funked or walked the h**l out of 'post-Fender' Fender basses.

Did the ladder filter in these 'non-Moog' Moogs become less authentic for his absence?

I had a Mini for 2 years. It was a wonderful time of my life. I pretty much cried when the owner took it back. But I also remember that the osc and filter were terribly unstable. The amp had major issues as well. And the construction and assembly were pretty much what you would expect to see, if you were working on a vintage Fiat or British Leland. In other words shoddy.
I can't believe that anyone ever roaded these synths without a backup!
In my opinion what we miss about vintage Moogs was pretty much ironed out by making those circuits more reliable.
Well that and I think there is a general vibe to all vintage gear that can be ascribed to decrepit electronic components on the brink of a failure mode.

To me a Voyager is a Mini because I can get MY Mini bass sound out of it, plus a few others.
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