Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

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varun213
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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by varun213 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:37 am

recordbot wrote:
varun213 wrote:I'm having trouble making this 900$ investment for a Drum synth lol...
the exact details of why I cannot say but my man from Detroit came to my studio and told me that the collector items need to go, everything without a specific purpose had to go, and that I had way too much stuff I didn't need, basically get 1 thing for poly, 1 thing for mono, he said the drum boxes were collector items that had to go and that he had way more interesting stuff cutting up drum loops in Maschine and then running them out and back in again through various processors to get what he wanted


interesting enough he told me some of the deepest techno tracks I love with really big sounding drums weren't even 808/909 they were made with a R8 that was sampled resampled processed and recorded,

this guy told me the key to my studio was my console and my preamps that I should just run everything through that and then run it through again. To be honest he's making money with this and touring all the time, he's been inside every studio in Detroit so I have to take what he says with some amount of serious, someone else mentioned you need those 808/909 boxes for certain music and while yes that is true to some degree it's not like you can't make that music without those boxes either,

it's not the hardware that creates the music, your mind does, so pass on the expensive drum box and think about everything else a producer needs to consider in his chain between idea and finished product, don't sleep on console, convertors, EQ, compression, preamps, you can probably produce a lot more with a revox tape deck and everything you already have than just buying another piece.

so if you're hot to spend money and you don't have a preamp go find yourself a preamp like warm audio tonebeast, ampex 601, or anything like that and use that, it's less than your drum synth budget and will teach you more about producing, if you can hold out save your money and go buy a manley varimu, or go grab a 1176 clone and run things through that, whats your console and eq situation looking like? what are your convertors looking like? anything weak in that chain is going to determine where your final product sits so you could have every drum box and synth on the hot list and have it sound terrible because you have no console, no tape, no high quality conversion

which sample library to use?

you have a record collection right?

I'm sure there are drums on those records, if not go buy the best of little feat and start there. I'm sure between a little feat CD, preamp and tape deck you can hit a tone nobody else has yet with samples everyone has heard a million times, and anyone else reading this could do the same if any of us could get out of the gas zone.



the guys in Chicago tell me that tone control on the 909 belongs all the way up and it should stay there, so if you're doing that kind of music why have the box if that setting will just always sit in 1 place
Appreciate the feedback,

well to start off my setup is completely digital. The only thing external is prophet '08 and Roland A-88 midi keyboard. I got the chance to record a simple beat using a synth bass programmed from the prophet and it instantly sounds way better than digital synth basses! with that I am really inclined towards the VERMONA DRM1 drum synth because I know it packs a powerful analog sound with those drums. But you mentioned about getting a really nice pre-amp instead and just run drumkit samples through that once or twice. That sounds really interesting and I wouldn't doubt it if that could give a fat analog type sound! For drums and Hardware synths in general what are some really good Pre amps out there at around 1200? (my budget is 1200 max for a pre amp for now lol)

Kick drums and claps I am not too worried about I think running those types of samples through a pre amp would make em sound great. I want to get into creating my own EFX sounds that dont have to deal with time stretching issues like you would with a sample. Are there any hardware synths that are dedicated to making weird percussive/efx type sounds out there?

I'm very very new to the hardware synth world.

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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by Stab Frenzy » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:04 am

A preamp makes a tiny difference to the sound, if you don't think your drums sound amazing before you run them through a preamp you won't think they sound amazing afterwards either. Spending $1200 on a preamp when you don't have a super clean audio interface is the dumbest waste of money I've ever heard of, no offence. And this is coming from a guy that used to build tube preamps for a living.

I think for the moment just calm down and don't blow your money on something that you don't really know what it does because somebody you don't know on the internet said that somebody else that you don't know thought it would be a good idea. Concentrate on your tracks, learn to use your prophet (you know you can make drums on that as well?) and worry about preamps and other stuff that gives you the last 1% when the time comes. You don't even know the TR-8 is a digital drum machine, I don't think you should go nuts chasing analogue tone just yet. :lol:

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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by varun213 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:55 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:A preamp makes a tiny difference to the sound, if you don't think your drums sound amazing before you run them through a preamp you won't think they sound amazing afterwards either. Spending $1200 on a preamp when you don't have a super clean audio interface is the dumbest waste of money I've ever heard of, no offence. And this is coming from a guy that used to build tube preamps for a living.

I think for the moment just calm down and don't blow your money on something that you don't really know what it does because somebody you don't know on the internet said that somebody else that you don't know thought it would be a good idea. Concentrate on your tracks, learn to use your prophet (you know you can make drums on that as well?) and worry about preamps and other stuff that gives you the last 1% when the time comes. You don't even know the TR-8 is a digital drum machine, I don't think you should go nuts chasing analogue tone just yet. :lol:

No offence taken, thanks for the honesty. Quick off topic question do you need a solid background in electrical engineering to be able to design tube preamps and stuff like that?

Could you give me your opinion on the Steinberg UR44 im selling my Mbox pro for it tomorrow.

Could you make drum sounds on the prophet '08 desktop module? I wouldnt have a clue on how to create certain sounds. The only thing I can design is a simple sawtooth synth bassline. Which is very noob. I made a quick instrumental today and was just blown away by the tone that the analog hardwar synth gave me. It has me excited to get the Vermona DRM1 drum synth which is very basic to use i believe. Have you ever tried/heard of that?

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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by meatballfulton » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:46 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:these days he's performing out the front of a terrible nu-metal band and making money by doing ads for car batteries. ;)
Making money is the important part. I'm sure it pays better than Spotify does ;)
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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by Walter Ego » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:19 pm

varun213 wrote:Could you make drum sounds on the prophet '08 desktop module? I wouldnt have a clue on how to create certain sounds. The only thing I can design is a simple sawtooth synth bassline.
The P08 is a powerful synthesizer. Drum synths are not necessarily special or different synthesizers, they just have dedicated designs that limit what the synth can do. They are distilled from bigger synthesizer systems and contain (usually) only the necessary controls to make the specific sounds they are designed to make. The P08, or any capable synthesizer for that matter, mono or poly, should be able to make plenty of percussive sounds. A helpful, though not always necessary, feature is the Noise waveform for an oscillator. That will allow you to do all kinds of fx, from hats and snares to wind and thunder. It's important to EXPERIMENT with your gear. There are also probably percussive presets on the Prophet, though I don't know, as I've never used one.

One of the most basic percussion sounds is a bass kick. There are a number of ways to achieve this, but one way is to take one of your basic patches and turn the filter cutoff to the lowest setting and crank the resonance up near the top. Just experiment with it until you find something you like. Keep the envelope attack setting at zero and shorten the sustain and the decay until you find something that sounds like a kick. This is a rather inexact way of describing it. If you want more detail, check out youtube videos. These articles from SOS on synth secrets are also a very valuable resource.

This is a link to all the articles. Check out #2 near the bottom first, then look at the articles from Nov. 2001 to July 2002--these are all about synthesizing different kinds of percussion sounds. It's a great resource.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm
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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by recordbot » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:23 pm

I'm going to agree with stab here, while a preamp is a nice thing to have or better yet a rack full of them, for where you're at, is that going to add the most to your sound and encourage you to experiment and record more so you'll know your gear and find out what it can do,

remember it's not just the synth or the pre or the convertors or the console, it's the sum of all those parts together. Also 1200 sounds high end for a pre for your setup, maybe ok for a pair but it sounds like you would get a lot more milage with a bunch of less expensive stuff that does the same jobs, get a tape deck at any price range you probably already have one, some kind of lower end gate compressor and a midiverb, all that stuff will set you back like 200 and you'll be running sounds in and out of the box, experimenting with gain staging and getting to know your equipment while developing a work flow that will be you teaching yourself how to get your ideas out of your head and printed to tape or cd.

If you're going to go high end you really want all those parts to arrive at the same time, if you are buying new stuff it will depreciate the second you buy it so basically you're better off spending 4K or more to get pres, good desk, convertors, and everything else you need for that higher end project so once it's done you can sell it for something decent while you're promoting your record, I mean I've heard a lot of stories about guys buying a synth, tracking it for a song and then returning it only to buy it again later after the recording made them some money, got them some bookings etc

I think we may be at a severe disadvantage having so many options these days, If you could only pick from one of a handful of synths in your range you'd spend a lot more time playing and way less time gassing for other stuff. We're all saying the same thing, learn what you have, less is more, make sure there is a reason for you to have what you have.

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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by Stab Frenzy » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:02 am

varun213 wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:A preamp makes a tiny difference to the sound, if you don't think your drums sound amazing before you run them through a preamp you won't think they sound amazing afterwards either. Spending $1200 on a preamp when you don't have a super clean audio interface is the dumbest waste of money I've ever heard of, no offence. And this is coming from a guy that used to build tube preamps for a living.

I think for the moment just calm down and don't blow your money on something that you don't really know what it does because somebody you don't know on the internet said that somebody else that you don't know thought it would be a good idea. Concentrate on your tracks, learn to use your prophet (you know you can make drums on that as well?) and worry about preamps and other stuff that gives you the last 1% when the time comes. You don't even know the TR-8 is a digital drum machine, I don't think you should go nuts chasing analogue tone just yet. :lol:

No offence taken, thanks for the honesty. Quick off topic question do you need a solid background in electrical engineering to be able to design tube preamps and stuff like that?
You do to design them, building them is a bit easier. I'm only just starting to design my own things, mostly Eurorack modules but I also have a preamp-type thing in the pipeline. All my designs are solid state though, although the company I used to work for did valve gear.
varun213 wrote:Could you give me your opinion on the Steinberg UR44 im selling my Mbox pro for it tomorrow.
I wouldn't sell your Mbox Pro, they're actually really quite good interfaces. The Digidesign interfaces have a bad rep because the early ones were quite bad (I owned an original Mbox and a 002) but the current line are actually quite capable. I think if you did go through with that deal you'd be going sideways at best, and downwards at worst. If you really want to upgrade your interface have a look at the RME Firefaces, but to be honest I think that the Mbox Pro is fine so I'd stick with it.
varun213 wrote:Could you make drum sounds on the prophet '08 desktop module? I wouldnt have a clue on how to create certain sounds. The only thing I can design is a simple sawtooth synth bassline. Which is very noob. I made a quick instrumental today and was just blown away by the tone that the analog hardwar synth gave me.
You can make whatever sounds you want (within reason), it's a synthesiser. Have a look at various tutorials on drum synthesis to work out how to do it with your Prophet, the Waldorf Attack guide to programming drum sounds is particularly good.

http://www.waldorf-music.info/en/archiv ... umentation
varun213 wrote:It has me excited to get the Vermona DRM1 drum synth which is very basic to use i believe. Have you ever tried/heard of that?
Yes I own one, and I had a fairly long conversation with you about it in another thread. ;)

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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by Zamise » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:15 am

varun213 wrote: I'm trying to get my music to the next level where I can possibly work with people who are very talented and in order for that I would need to have a great sound. I know many producers are amazing with digital music only especially in hip hop, I believe using hardware synths can maybe influence a more unique sound to the beats/instrumentals I am already making. Especially in a genre where most sound the same because the same drum kits are used like crazy.

What would you say?
If they call themselves a producer, that is a red flag already in my book and for another debate. Anyhow if you have the same or similar DAW/Computer setup and same software as them, that seems 50% of the battle, the other 50% or so is probably learning all of it because there isn't much you can not do inside a modern laptop setup alone that everyone else here seems to be talking you in to or out of getting for upping your hardware sound game. The trend I've noticed lately are all the different usb pad interfaces coming out for controlling stuff inside your DAW, and that maybe could step your production up and or give you that edge, maybe? I don't know, a hardware drum machine probably wouldn't be the first thing I'd look at, but if you must, how about a Linndrum II or DS Boomchic for a decent suggestion? I've always wanted one of those, but far from an expert on what you may be looking for, the rest of the folks here likely know better than I on this topic. My expertise is mostly on the Yamaha RS7000, and less so but a lot of other various groove style gear, if you happen to want to look more in that direction you are welcome to shoot me a message.
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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by varun213 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:40 pm

Zamise wrote:
varun213 wrote: I'm trying to get my music to the next level where I can possibly work with people who are very talented and in order for that I would need to have a great sound. I know many producers are amazing with digital music only especially in hip hop, I believe using hardware synths can maybe influence a more unique sound to the beats/instrumentals I am already making. Especially in a genre where most sound the same because the same drum kits are used like crazy.

What would you say?
If they call themselves a producer, that is a red flag already in my book and for another debate. Anyhow if you have the same or similar DAW/Computer setup and same software as them, that seems 50% of the battle, the other 50% or so is probably learning all of it because there isn't much you can not do inside a modern laptop setup alone that everyone else here seems to be talking you in to or out of getting for upping your hardware sound game. The trend I've noticed lately are all the different usb pad interfaces coming out for controlling stuff inside your DAW, and that maybe could step your production up and or give you that edge, maybe? I don't know, a hardware drum machine probably wouldn't be the first thing I'd look at, but if you must, how about a Linndrum II or DS Boomchic for a decent suggestion? I've always wanted one of those, but far from an expert on what you may be looking for, the rest of the folks here likely know better than I on this topic. My expertise is mostly on the Yamaha RS7000, and less so but a lot of other various groove style gear, if you happen to want to look more in that direction you are welcome to shoot me a message.
Im actually really curious to hear your view on why that is red flag calling themselves producers? Right now I can say I am just a beat maker but want to step into Music/Record Producing. I only so a few details that a music producer would do besides just making the instrumental. I agree with all your other points as well. I'd like to get a drum machine just for the fact you can incorporate your own drums in music and as a benefit they are analog drums.

Could you elaborate on the music producer topic though please?

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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by ned-ryarson » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:01 pm

The ER1 is fun and great for 'bleeps'. I never had any luck creating useable kicks and snares with it though. And the preset kicks and snares are a disaster also, in my opinion of course! Quite cheap to purchase, but will likely be back in EBay within a couple of months

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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by synthroom » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:05 pm

I remember the days when there were basically just composers, musicians, singers, engineers, and producers. And never did one person do all of those jobs
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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by Zamise » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:18 am

varun213 wrote: Im actually really curious to hear your view on why that is red flag calling themselves producers? Right now I can say I am just a beat maker but want to step into Music/Record Producing. I only so a few details that a music producer would do besides just making the instrumental. I agree with all your other points as well. I'd like to get a drum machine just for the fact you can incorporate your own drums in music and as a benefit they are analog drums.

Could you elaborate on the music producer topic though please?
Um, it is code for someone who doesn't know sh1t but can talk a lot sh1t about sh1t they may have had a small part in the actual work of said sh1t. I know that is an over generalization and simple view but I don't want to side track an otherwise decent thread topic by being a producer. I hope you find a drum machine or something that will take you to that next level, don't call yourself a producer when you get there ;)
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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by Stab Frenzy » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:26 am

Zamise wrote:I don't know, a hardware drum machine probably wouldn't be the first thing I'd look at, but if you must, how about a Linndrum II or DS Boomchic for a decent suggestion?
Neither of those actually exist, they were mockups on the way to designing what became the Tempest.

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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by Zamise » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:26 pm

Thats right forgot the renamed to the Tempest thanks.
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Re: Digital Drumkits vs Analog Synth Drums

Post by varun213 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:12 pm

Zamise wrote:
varun213 wrote: Im actually really curious to hear your view on why that is red flag calling themselves producers? Right now I can say I am just a beat maker but want to step into Music/Record Producing. I only so a few details that a music producer would do besides just making the instrumental. I agree with all your other points as well. I'd like to get a drum machine just for the fact you can incorporate your own drums in music and as a benefit they are analog drums.

Could you elaborate on the music producer topic though please?
Um, it is code for someone who doesn't know sh1t but can talk a lot sh1t about sh1t they may have had a small part in the actual work of said sh1t. I know that is an over generalization and simple view but I don't want to side track an otherwise decent thread topic by being a producer. I hope you find a drum machine or something that will take you to that next level, don't call yourself a producer when you get there ;)
I agree in what you're saying, because Im majoring In Mechanical Engineering and when I hear of the the term "engineers" in the music industry I kind of laugh lol. Its all bullshit they are audio technicians if I had to put a legit term to it lol. same way as what you're referring to as producers. Its a term that is loosely used and dont think it makes a difference anymore lol People just love the titles but arent really doing the work behind it.

But anyways I think ill go with vermona DRM1 since its very easy to use and gives you some options in tweaking analog drums.

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