so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by madtheory » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:46 pm

Mooger5 wrote:
madtheory wrote:Maybe I did misread, but what about the unbuffered 1252 VCA, which is buffered in the 106? Unbuffered causes a HF rolloff which would make the 6/60 sound "warmer".
Just checked. They´re all buffered!
I don't think that is correct:
"The Juno106 uses IC4A to buffer the input to that VCA. The Juno-60 doesn't have that buffer; it couples almost directly, only separated by a DC-blocking capacitor. "

The above is under the filter diagram for the 106 on the blog.

http://sequence15.blogspot.ie/2008/10/w ... -from.html
WalterEgo wrote: the minimal MIDI implementation of the 106 any day.
I wouldn't call full SysEx automation of all front panel controls "minimal"...
knolan wrote:I think Walter Ego's appraisal of it's sound is wide off the mark. It's hugely respected, constitutes THE classic Roland sound of the 80's, has about as much character as the best of them, and is loved and sought after the world over.
Except that, unless PWM is required (because some of them don't have that as I said earlier), all the other Roland polys can do exactly the same sounds, plus a whole lot more, for less money.

That they are "loved the world over" is exactly what is being called into question here. I would contend that, given a little more time and practice, Juno sounds are easy to dial in on almost any Roland poly. And a simple arpegiator certainly doesn't justify the price, seeing as it is such a simple thing to do in software these days. I mean, yes, I get why they're such an attractive synth. It's all "sweet spot" on those sliders. Lovely sounds, really nice to use, you can't go wrong because there isn't much to go wrong with! Limitations can be really useful and productive in music. But not at this price IMO.
Last edited by madtheory on Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:08 pm

madtheory wrote:
Walter Ego wrote:
ninja6485 wrote: the minimal MIDI implementation of the 106 any day.
I wouldn't call full SysEx automation of all front panel controls "minimal"...
I'm quoted as saying this, but it was someone else
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by Walter Ego » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:14 pm

madtheory wrote: knolan wrote:
I think Walter Ego's appraisal of it's sound is wide off the mark. It's hugely respected, constitutes THE classic Roland sound of the 80's, has about as much character as the best of them, and is loved and sought after the world over.


Except that, unless PWM is required (because some of them don't have that as I said earlier), all the other Roland polys can do exactly the same sounds, plus a whole lot more, for less money.
Hm. I was really just saying that compared to, say, the Jupiter line, the Juno 60 sounds quite digital to my ears--namely it has those noisy hollow digital artifacts that detract from the sound. They can be minimized, but they're still present, just like on a lowly Poly-800.

But as far as the tone goes, I agree completely that it's a classic. It's a powerful and simple workhorse of a synth and it's almost impossible to make it sound bad--very good tuning of filter and parameters to make it one big sweet spot. I agree with all that, and the only way I would sell mine would be if I came back into a Jupiter 6 or something comparable.

I was also saying I'm not interested in a 106; full automation would be nice, I suppose, but I like playing the 60, and I stand by my claim that it's better made, and I do think worth more than a 106. I wouldn't pay what I paid for the 60 for the 106, anyway.
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:15 pm

Synths can be like food in some ways. Sometimes you have a taste for things, and that can extend into preferences. If I have a taste for cake, there's nothing like a really good piece of cake. I don't want some cheap cupcakes from the supermarket with diabetes inducing icing, I want a good quality piece of cake. And if cake is one of my favorite foods, I will gladly seek out some that are a little more expensive to get that quality and the type of cake that I want. And it's important to get the flavor of cake I have a taste for. Not just any will do. The Juno is like a really good piece of cake, perhaps a specific and desirable type. Yes, many synths can do similar sounds. And there are many cakes. But when I really have a taste for that kind of cake, why should I settle with a crappy cupcake of any old flavor because someone on the internet, who isn't even that interested in cake to begin with, thinks they're all just cake?
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by squatski » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:53 pm

Image

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by knolan » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:48 pm

Walter Ego wrote:
madtheory wrote: knolan wrote:
I think Walter Ego's appraisal of it's sound is wide off the mark. It's hugely respected, constitutes THE classic Roland sound of the 80's, has about as much character as the best of them, and is loved and sought after the world over.


Except that, unless PWM is required (because some of them don't have that as I said earlier), all the other Roland polys can do exactly the same sounds, plus a whole lot more, for less money.
Hm. I was really just saying that compared to, say, the Jupiter line, the Juno 60 sounds quite digital to my ears--namely it has those noisy hollow digital artifacts that detract from the sound. They can be minimized, but they're still present, just like on a lowly Poly-800.

But as far as the tone goes, I agree completely that it's a classic. It's a powerful and simple workhorse of a synth and it's almost impossible to make it sound bad--very good tuning of filter and parameters to make it one big sweet spot. I agree with all that, and the only way I would sell mine would be if I came back into a Jupiter 6 or something comparable.

I was also saying I'm not interested in a 106; full automation would be nice, I suppose, but I like playing the 60, and I stand by my claim that it's better made, and I do think worth more than a 106. I wouldn't pay what I paid for the 60 for the 106, anyway.

Not sure what those artifacts are? I've owned my J106 since it was new in the mid 80's and never noticed artifacts - not saying they're not there - just never noticed them.

Overall, speaking on the J106 alone as that's what I know well; what makes the J106 special is the DCO-VCF combination - it can give the Juno an almost "PPG" sound - and - when the VCF is set to self-oscillation and shaped with envelope amount (positive or negative) coupled to suboscillator and noise in managed amounts, offers a very uniques set of rich, evolving pad sounds that can't (in my experience) be created on a pure analogue synth (or indeed a purely digital one).

When coupled to filter self-resonance (or indeed near self-resonance but not 'quite' there) - and both set ti different pitches, and then use nuanced amounts of suboscillator, noise, gentle envelope shaping, keyboard tracking and chorus - you can achieve almost "Tomita" level choral type sounds, and gluttery fender rhodes type sounds (admittedly only over a few octaves at a time). In such 'nuanced' sound design territory (for want of a better term) stepping through different PW values almost feels like you're stepping through wavetables, so different can the character of the sound be for each percentage duty cycle.

But then using the J106 saw-tooth with a brassy envelope through Chorus I and into a descent DDL and / or Reverb and its huge - I have peices I did in the '80s and 90's on it that are big - really big, thick and brassy - Oberheim in character - I mean - I'm really impressed (I didn't know any better at the time because I just owned a Casio1000P, a MonoPoly and a Juno 106 and that was it) - so I can tell you from younger innocent attempts that the range of sounds I achieved on the Juno 106 was genuinely broad, deep and varied. I have to say - I absolutely adore the sound of the Juno 106 - I think it has a very unique character of being both a big thick analog polysynth (when coaxed with its Chrous 1 (Chorus 2 can be a little too much 'chorus') plus DDL / Reverb - and then as said - and as hinted at by madtheory - a quite digital synth - but - for me in ways you want - in the best tradition of the PPG 2.3 being a digital oscillator synth passed into a VCF, or the Emulator two passing samples into an analogue VCF - so the J106 is in that company, in my opinion.

I'm actually not clear if the Juno 106 and the Juno60 sound the same. I don't track these synths on a 'chip' level - so perhaps you can argue they are virtually identical in make up - but what I do know is that a good friend of mine here in Dublin by the name of Owen Drumm (a genius who was servicing Windmill Lane's Fairlight CMI by the age of 15, and who shortly there after was called in by an engineering team in the UK to help solve problem with the Eurofighter Guidance Algorithm, and shortly there after designed his own 64-bit processor which ended up inside every Calrec mixing console for a decade - for starters - while also supporting all the engineering requirements of Def Leaoprd, designing the electronics behind U@'s Zooropa concerts and designing (in the 90's) a 72 channel digital mixer for Enya that had, as a library, reverse-engineered characteristics for ever famous analogue and analogue /digital hybrid such as SSL / Neve that Enya could call up at a whim) - and Owen also supported all of Enya and Nicky Ryan's studio equipment - and he used to wax lyrical to me about that the Juno60 sounded very different to the Juno 106 - indeed ALL arpeggiations on ALL Enya albums are only Juno60 - and nothing else would suffice - so given Owen's extraordinary pedigree and world-renowned reputation, I've always assumed the Juno60 was _very_ different to the Juno 106.


( For many years I was lucky enough for Owen to look after some of my instruments too :-) )

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by Mooger5 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:19 pm

madtheory wrote:
Mooger5 wrote:
madtheory wrote:Maybe I did misread, but what about the unbuffered 1252 VCA, which is buffered in the 106? Unbuffered causes a HF rolloff which would make the 6/60 sound "warmer".
Just checked. They´re all buffered!
I don't think that is correct:
"The Juno106 uses IC4A to buffer the input to that VCA. The Juno-60 doesn't have that buffer; it couples almost directly, only separated by a DC-blocking capacitor. "

The above is under the filter diagram for the 106 on the blog.

http://sequence15.blogspot.ie/2008/10/w ... -from.html
OK. Thought you were referring to the VCAs themselves; their outputs are obviously buffered. It´s true the signal between the demux and the final VCA isn´t buffered on the 60, but it just applies when the HPF is in use. At the zero position the signal goes basically through a straight wire, and it is already buffered by IC23 in the CPU board. Unless the demux changes the signal. Cornutt noted the different demux ICs. Although they´re pin for pin compatible, if the 4052 used in the 106 has a rather high output impedance than the 14051 in the 60, then that IC4 is justified.

There´s a significant difference between the 6 and the 60 here. In place of the demux and final VCA there´s just a 6db high-pass filter consisting of a capacitor in series with a BA662 acting as a variable resistor and buffered by an FET. It´s like a single cell of the IR3109 wired as HPF...
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by ninja6485 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:06 pm

squatski wrote:Image
YES!!! :happy3:
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by squatski » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:36 pm

wow lol! some people can really get into their synths can't they!! talking about chips and what not... I was only trying to talk about the stupid pricing :lol:

but no carry on. I already know the answer. save money and wait for a good deal.

but yeah carry on talking about your chips and IC buffer ?? and things. :D

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by madtheory » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:17 pm

squatski wrote:wow lol! some people can really get into their synths can't they!! talking about chips and what not... I was only trying to talk about the stupid pricing :lol:

but no carry on. I already know the answer. save money and wait for a good deal.

but yeah carry on talking about your chips and IC buffer ?? and things. :D
:lol: :lol: you're dead right :D Ya I think the price is a big problem, see below re current DSI polysynths. h**l, even the Crumar Bits are getting silly now! Nice synths, bags of character, but no way are they worth more than €400.
ninja6485 wrote:... why should I settle with a crappy cupcake of any old flavor because someone on the internet, who isn't even that interested in cake to begin with, thinks they're all just cake?
No-one said that. I certainly didn't. My only issue is they're not worth the price (see above)! I guess part of that is I remember when they were around €300-400. That's a reasonable value IMO. But for the price they go for now, anything from DSI kicks this s**t out of them.
Mooger5 wrote: There´s a significant difference between the 6 and the 60 here. In place of the demux and final VCA there´s just a 6db high-pass filter consisting of a capacitor in series with a BA662 acting as a variable resistor and buffered by an FET. It´s like a single cell of the IR3109 wired as HPF...
I disagree that it's significant. I've had a 60 and 106 side by side. The 106 was out of cal, but apart from that a touch of bass boost with any basic eq quite literally equalises them. And I didn't have a JX8P next to either of them, but that thing does most of the same sounds apart from the PWM, but the pads are much much nicer and you can get a wider variety of them, because of the dual oscillators. It's just that without the PG programmer it's a bit of a pain in the a*s to dial in the patch. They're going for silly money too, although not as silly as a Juno IMO. The UI on the Junos is just perfect. But the solitary envelope annoys me, personally. :)

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by Mooger5 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:30 am

I´m referring to juno 6 vs juno 60. People assume they´re identical but there is an objective difference. If it´s so subtle that no one notices, remains to be seen, I think.

I love it that it has just one env! Endless features on a synth bores me like the 200+ channels on cable tv. What good are they if you only watch a dozen or so.
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by meatballfulton » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:07 pm

The problem with just a single EG or LFO, no velocity, no AT, etc. is that it limits the ability to be as expressive as an acoustic instrument. I can create great timbral changes with just my hands playing a string instrument, with a wind instrument I use my lips,and tongue, etc. By comparison electronic instruments are woefully limited in their ability to control the notes produced in real time.
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by ninja6485 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:30 pm

madtheory wrote:
squatski wrote:wow lol! some people can really get into their synths can't they!! talking about chips and what not... I was only trying to talk about the stupid pricing :lol:

but no carry on. I already know the answer. save money and wait for a good deal.

but yeah carry on talking about your chips and IC buffer ?? and things. :D
:lol: :lol: you're dead right :D Ya I think the price is a big problem, see below re current DSI polysynths. h**l, even the Crumar Bits are getting silly now! Nice synths, bags of character, but no way are they worth more than €400.
ninja6485 wrote:... why should I settle with a crappy cupcake of any old flavor because someone on the internet, who isn't even that interested in cake to begin with, thinks they're all just cake?
No-one said that. I certainly didn't. My only issue is they're not worth the price (see above)! I guess part of that is I remember when they were around €300-400. That's a reasonable value IMO. But for the price they go for now, anything from DSI kicks this s**t out of them.
Mooger5 wrote: There´s a significant difference between the 6 and the 60 here. In place of the demux and final VCA there´s just a 6db high-pass filter consisting of a capacitor in series with a BA662 acting as a variable resistor and buffered by an FET. It´s like a single cell of the IR3109 wired as HPF...
I disagree that it's significant. I've had a 60 and 106 side by side. The 106 was out of cal, but apart from that a touch of bass boost with any basic eq quite literally equalises them. And I didn't have a JX8P next to either of them, but that thing does most of the same sounds apart from the PWM, but the pads are much much nicer and you can get a wider variety of them, because of the dual oscillators. It's just that without the PG programmer it's a bit of a pain in the a*s to dial in the patch. They're going for silly money too, although not as silly as a Juno IMO. The UI on the Junos is just perfect. But the solitary envelope annoys me, personally. :)
DSI is the same thing: some people get it, and some people don't. I don't get it. I have had a JX-8P next to my Juno for about 8 or 9 years, and they're like apples and oranges. The JX isn't anywhere near one giant sweet spot that the Juno is, and it's not because it's more complex or harder to program. It just sounds different. The JX I think needs a little chorus to bring it out, more so than the Juno. The resonance is totally different on both, and interacts with the patches differently. It can give the JX more if a 303 kind of sound (almost) vs the Juno which had more of a 101 kind of sound. Although the JX can get huge chunky basses that the Juno can't touch. The jX sounds thin and plucky on sounds whetr the Juno sounds rich and warm. And because each has its own unique tone quality, having both entails almost no overlap whatsoever, yet they are both varieties of the roland sound.
This looks like a psychotropic reaction. No wonder it's so popular...

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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by bochelli » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:58 pm

Perhaps 10 years ago i bought a J60 in the local paper for £85 had 2 minor faults, most Roland synths were mass made they should still be plenty out there.
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Re: so Juno 60's are about £1000 now? what the h**l?!

Post by adamstan » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:31 pm

bochelli wrote:Siel Opera 6 can offer much.
Yeah, I really miss mine. However, their prices have risen in recent years too... And usually they suffer from battery leakage (same as Polysix), so you have to rebuild CPU board.
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