How can I achieve the Zapp & Roger bass synth funk sound?

[greentmanta]

I'd like to know if any of you could bless me with patches or advice on which synth to get for this sound be it software, digital, analog, or more bounce to the ounce Thanks!

[Solderman]

I can do this bass sound on my Moog Voyager with two oscillators: square and a triangle an octave above it. Square volume is roughly half the triangle's. Filter resonance is at a moderate level, with noticable envelope attack for that "wah" effect. Fairly wide filter envelope depth with a medium decay rate that drops pretty low. On further thought, this might actually be a layered bass, with the second having no resonance and mostly filtered down to the fundamental.

Now what I want to know is, how the h**l did Zapp and Roger do their vocoding techniques? And that one big snare they always used, I want that sample!

[futureworlder]

Roger Troutman/Trautman used a Yamaha DX-100 through a Heil Talkbox for the "vocoder" sound. If you dig around on YouTube etc, I'm pretty sure you'll find examples of the technique.

The "massive snare" was most likely a LINNDrum cranked up in the mix with some compression to make it sizzle.

[Z]

Skip to about 5:30 for Troutman demonstrating the Talkbox on a MiniMoog:


I messed around with a Banshee talkbox earlier this year and was not able to get any "intelligible talk" from it. I was able to get some simple wah-wah effects. I'm sure it takes some practice and maybe special techinque to get something intelligible. I'll stick with my Roland SVC-350 if I want that sort of sound.

[Solderman]

Fascinating. Only familiar with the Frampton type sound, using a guitar, I would not have guessed.

Back on topic, I hear alot of those 2 oscillator resonant basses in early 80's funk, so I'm sure the sound source isn't limited to a Moog 4 pole filter. It's probably more about getting alot of big bottom, the right resonance and the right envelope shape.

[nvbrkr]

Here's what P-Thugg from Chromeo said about the talkbox thing:

With the talkbox, what do you use for the sound source?

P-Thugg: An old Yamaha DX100, which is what Roger from Zapp used. I became friends with one of the guys from his band, and he sent me the patches by email as MIDI Sys Ex files. I just dumped ’em in, and there were all his sounds. I couldn’t believe it. The whole first row of buttons is one sound that’s transposed ¬– since he had to concentrate on singing with the talkbox, he played in a comfortable key and selected the different patches for the different songs.

As far as the basses go, at least the Minneapolis end of 80s synth-y funk goes, I don't think that stuff was based around Moogs at all. I think many artists / bands just started using their polysynths for that purpose as well.

[b3groover]

I think a jheri curl is necessary as well.

[Z]

Here's what P-Thugg from Chromeo said about the talkbox thing:

With the talkbox, what do you use for the sound source?

P-Thugg: An old Yamaha DX100, which is what Roger from Zapp used. I became friends with one of the guys from his band, and he sent me the patches by email as MIDI Sys Ex files. I just dumped ’em in, and there were all his sounds. I couldn’t believe it. The whole first row of buttons is one sound that’s transposed ¬– since he had to concentrate on singing with the talkbox, he played in a comfortable key and selected the different patches for the different songs.

I know all this talk box talk is getting off topic, but if "More Bounce to the Ounce" came out in 1980, there's no way a DX100 was used. I keep seeing eBay auctions and others talking about the DX100/talk box as being Troutman's signature sound, so where is this being validated?

[nvbrkr]

Yeah, good point. Since he was using a mini in that video, it's possible he was using one too during those earlier days as well. So that's one possibility. But the shift to the DX must have happened later on, as it's just more practical. Perhaps there is a youtube video around for a TV performance or something -- I'll look up later on.

However, I don't think it's mandatory to use an analog synth for tlakbox or vocoding to get a decent sound. Frankly speaking, it's really hard to get my Voyager to work in that function too well (then again I have to use non-real time software vocoders, so tweaking is a bit cumbersome).

[Hair]

On this 1989 performance he's using a Mini as well (visible briefly at 8:26)

[youtube][/youtube]

[nvbrkr]

Okay, after seeing especially the first part of that video... I'm not surprised that people sort of forgot about Zapp for about a decade.

Well, okay. To be honest, most of the classic funk acts did start adding some really terrible stuff to their live performances towards the end of the 80s and the early-90s. Not really a good period for funk in general.

[ERIC31]

I have to admit, that was some pretty cheezy stage and costume efforts.

That being said, it's nice to see some funk played LIVE with REAL musicians instead of some guy with a MacBook pro, a keyboard controller with some "singers" doing their best lip sync like we have today.