Need your opinions/advice on 3 vintage synths

[Cycom]

I will be making some major synth purchases in the coming months to add a more varied sound palette to my tracks.

I'm currently looking at buying one new synth and one vintage. For the former, I've already decided on a PEK. It's the latter decision that will give me some sleepless nights. To make things easier, I'll provide a short list of the 3 vintage synths I'm considering:

1. PPG Wave (2.2 or 2.3...only the 2.3 has MIDI?)

2. SCI Prophet VS

&

3. either a Roland Jupiter 6 or an MKS-80




Right, so I need some advice on the prices (high/low) and reliability (as well as how difficult they are to fix/find spare parts for). Also, to those that own any of these machines, please give me your honest opinions of them.

Thanks in advance.

[Z]

I have all the above (sort of, my Wave 2.3 is in the shop and has never worked since I bought it last summer) and all have a different sound.

I have never heard a PPG Wave in person, but have always loved the sounds that TD, DM, O'Hearn & Rush used from the Wave. Since they are seldom for sale in the States (and usually have issues), I picked up the cheapest one I could find. The Wave has that gritty, digital sound that only it can produce.

Like I said, Waves seldom come up for sale and usually have issues. Parts are hard to find, but Virtual Music in Vienna has a new OS for it and some parts. I've dumped a lot of money into the one I bought. The few times I've seen working Waves on eBay, they're priced between $2K - $4K.

I originally bought the VS to try to get the PPG sound, but again, has its own unique sound. One of its coolest features is the solo unison mode with detune. You can hear that all over NIN's Pretty Hate Machine. To me the VS is a good mix between digital and analog, but if you're looking for the "analog" sound, it falls short.

Most VS's are pretty reliable, but parts are nearly impossible to find. I see these sell on eBay from $800 - $1800.

I've owned my JP-6 for a decade and a half. It was my "go to" synth for basses using the solo unison mode and have always loved the synth. Last year, I had Europa installed, and like I said in Diametro's JP-6 thread - I'll probably be buried with it when I go to that analog heaven. I say that the JP-6 is a great poly analog workhorse.

JP-6's are pretty realiable, but parts are getting scarce. Since it's a CEM instrument, parts can be gutted from other synths. My JP-6 just had a new oscillator put in last year for one of its voices. Other than that, I've had no problems with mine. JP-6's sell for $800 to $1800 on eBay. Seems like there's been a bit of hype about them lately. The Europa upgrade from Synthcom is around $250. You just take out one PCB and send it to them. You get it back in about a week. I had them replace my battery, too.

I have also picked up a pair of MKS-80's and a MPG-80. People say it's a rack version of the JP-8 or a mix of the 6 & 8, but to me it sounds like the JP-6, but with added polyphony and dynamic controll.

MKS-80's are very reliable in my experience. Prices for the synth itself run $800 - $1500 and a MKS/MPG combo will set you back $1500 - $2500.

All are great machines, it really all depends on the sound you are looking for.

Z

[Sir Ruff]

seems like the PEK and VS/wave would overlap substantially.... the PEK even has the same waves as the VS. Why do you want of either these two + the PEK?

the jup-6 or mks-80 seems like a better choice... (having no idea what kind of music you make) I think you'd find the lack of polyphony on the PEK when trying to do more "traditional" synth sounds... I would go for the mks...

[Cycom]

Thanks for the very thorough reply, Z. Much appreciated.

Ok, so it seems like what I've read online about the PPG Wave 2 is accurate regarding its reliability. It just seems risky to put down at least 2k for it to have eventual problems down the road. Too bad, as I think it's one of the most stunning sounding machines ever.

Have you ever used an Ensoniq ESQ-1/SQ-80? I've heard they sound almost exactly the same as a VS (obviously not taking into account its vector capabilities). If anyone can vouch that they sound the same or similar enough, are the VS's vector qualities enough to warrant the premium?

What about the PEK? I know it has the VS's original waves, but tone wise does it sound similar to a VS? If so, I should probably scratch the VS from my list as I'd rather get a newer, more reliable synth that can do similar things. Feel free to call me out on my ignorance, but would I be mistaken in assuming a PEK is basically a VS without vectoring and 4 less voices?

I'm shocked at the JP-6's current prices....I'd rather get an MKS-80 and Programmer for similar $$$.

I might have to look into an Alesis Andromeda too.

[Z]

I heard good things about the ESQ-1/SQ-80 here on VSE so a few months ago, I picked up an ESQ-1 just onder a couple hundred bucks - shipped. From what little I have used it, I am quite impressed. I have not yet had time to delve deep into its capabilities. The Ensoniqs may be a good alternative to the VS with the exception of having vector envelopes. Since the Ensoniqs have 3 oscillators and several LFO's, you might be able to simulate that effect. There are others here on VSE that can give more info about the Ensoniqs.

I got into synths in the late 80's when samplers and digital stuff was all the rage. There were no Ensoniq dealers that I knew of in Ft. Worth at that time. There may have been some in Dallas, but I wasn't driving yet. The trend for synths at that time was to get away from the unrealistic emulations of traditional instruments and on with PCM based synths. I got caught up with all that hype until the early 90's when I "really" discovered analog synths.

As far as the Rolands go, both the JP-6 & MKS-80 are going to deliver ABOUT the same sound. Another great thing about the JP-6 is its multi-mode filter. The MKS-80 has standard LP with Q and HP filters. Do you want a keyboard (with arpeggiator - the Europa upgrade greatly expands on that) or have plenty of keyboards or just need the space and go with the rack?

I've never messed around with the PEK much, just a few times at Guitar Center. I have the desktop monophoic Evolver. It's pretty cool. You can score a used one for around $400 or less. It would make a great addition to your synth family.

Z

[Cycom]

seems like the PEK and VS/wave would overlap substantially.... the PEK even has the same waves as the VS. Why do you want of either these two + the PEK?

the jup-6 or mks-80 seems like a better choice... (having no idea what kind of music you make) I think you'd find the lack of polyphony on the PEK when trying to do more "traditional" synth sounds... I would go for the mks...

I owned a "mostly" working SQ-80 for a few months and enjoyed its sound. I sold it because the keyboard wasn't working and it had funny voice problems. So I'm looking for a hybrid synth as a replacement. The 4 notes of polyphony on the PEK doesn't scare me too much because I'm planning on using it mostly for bass, arps, some wavesequencing, and simple chords. Besides, I can always opt to poly-chain in the future.....when budget permits...lol.

You're right about the JP-6 and MKS-80 being better at more traditional sounds, but as I mentioned, I'm looking at these in addition to a hybrid. Really, I'm looking at the PEK because I want peace of mind and good customer service at DSI. Better to deal with them than the smug, condescending twats at Wine Country.

Thanks for your insight, SirRuff. You've helped me narrow it down to a PEK and either a JP-6/MKS-80/or.......an Alesis Andromeda. I'm really torn on the latter choices.

[Cycom]

I heard good things about the ESQ-1/SQ-80 here on VSE so a few months ago, I picked up an ESQ-1 just onder a couple hundred bucks - shipped. From what little I have used it, I am quite impressed. I have not yet had time to delve deep into its capabilities. The Ensoniqs may be a good alternative to the VS with the exception of having vector envelopes. Since the Ensoniqs have 3 oscillators and several LFO's, you might be able to simulate that effect. There are others here on VSE that can give more info about the Ensoniqs.

I got into synths in the late 80's when samplers and digital stuff was all the rage. There were no Ensoniq dealers that I knew of in Ft. Worth at that time. There may have been some in Dallas, but I wasn't driving yet. The trend for synths at that time was to get away from the unrealistic emulations of traditional instruments and on with PCM based synths. I got caught up with all that hype until the early 90's when I "really" discovered analog synths.

As far as the Rolands go, both the JP-6 & MKS-80 are going to deliver ABOUT the same sound. Another great thing about the JP-6 is its multi-mode filter. The MKS-80 has standard LP with Q and HP filters. Do you want a keyboard (with arpeggiator - the Europa upgrade greatly expands on that) or have plenty of keyboards or just need the space and go with the rack?

I've never messed around with the PEK much, just a few times at Guitar Center. I have the desktop monophoic Evolver. It's pretty cool. You can score a used one for around $400 or less. It would make a great addition to your synth family.

Z

Hmm....didn't know that the MKS-80 doesn't have an arp. But really, I'm looking at a similar price between a JP-6 ( w/ Europa upgrade) and an MKS-80/Programmer combo, aren't I? Tough choice.....though I'm not a fan of racks. For a similar price I could also find an Andromeda in excellent/mint condition. I need a quality analog that will augment my lone JX-10. It's gonna be one of those 3.

Thanks once again.

[Z]

Hmm....didn't know that the MKS-80 doesn't have an arp. But really, I'm looking at a similar price between a JP-6 ( w/ Europa upgrade) and an MKS-80/Programmer combo, aren't I? Tough choice.....though I'm not a fan of racks. For a similar price I could also find an Andromeda in excellent/mint condition. I need a quality analog that will augment my lone JX-10. It's gonna be one of those 3.

I think the JP-6 or MKS-80 would complement your JX-10 nicely. The A6 is on my shopping list, too. I haven't messed aound with it enough to compare it to the CEM Rolands. My JP-6 sounds darker than what I have heard on the A6.

If you don't have a PG-800, that spot in the upper right corner of your JX is a perfect spot for a DSI Evolver...

Z

[Sir Ruff]

Hmm....didn't know that the MKS-80 doesn't have an arp. But really, I'm looking at a similar price between a JP-6 ( w/ Europa upgrade) and an MKS-80/Programmer combo, aren't I? Tough choice.....though I'm not a fan of racks. For a similar price I could also find an Andromeda in excellent/mint condition. I need a quality analog that will augment my lone JX-10. It's gonna be one of those 3.

Thanks once again.

having owned or owning a mks80/sq80/PEK/JX8, I can make some more general comments.

Firstly, I love the sq80-has been my flagship synth for most of my music producing time... never fails to surprise me with either weird sounds or smooth analogue-y stuff.
If you were comparing it to the VS, I'm sure there are difference, but actually, I think the sq80 offers a lot more in terms of modulation, sync/AM and even waveforms... You can do pseudo vectoring if you really wanted... and the yamaha SY-series is so cheap these days, you could just get one of them... (the ESQ/sq80s are so cheap as it is, you might as well get another one )
I liked the PEK, but never fell into a groove with it-I think mainly because I was treating it as a polysynth... I would still like to get a MEK one day to get a better feel for it... I also didn't like the construction or the knobs, but that's a seperate thing...
I disliked my jx8 almost immediately... the DCOs bugged me, and I hate it when you have to resort to chorus to get a good sound. I didn't feel like it offered me anything the SQ80 couldn't, even with the programmer. I also didn't like the whistly filter (if you turn osc volume all the way down, rez all the way up, and move the filter, you can hear it emphasizing some white noise at certain frequencies)... maybe the jx10 kicks its butt...

finally, the mks80-I have not used this a whole lot yet (probably because I don't tend to use "straight" analogue sounds in my music), but it has a great lush sound... to be honest, if you got it, I think you might ditch the jx10 pretty quickly... (tho ironically, I have the ver.5 mks which has the same filter as the JX8/10! Still the VCOs and everything else make me ignore the filter)... I think between the mks80 or jup-6 you need to decide if you want 8 voices + lusher (the ver. 5), or 8 voices and "tighter" (the ver. 4), OR 6 voices +multi-mode filter and "tighter" (the jup-6)

there's a thread from a while ago comparing the virtues of the jupiter 8 to the andromeda... I think the consensus was that the andromeda does not sound EXACTLY like the jup, but offers FAR more options and sounds...

the only thing that throws me off about them is the density of the programming... I just don't like using LCD screen and the feel of a "digital" knob... not saying I wouldn't get it tho if I need a big-a*s analogue! To be honest, the Andromeda would prolly cover all your analogue poly bases...

hope that helps a little!

[V301H]

Regarding the Jupiter 6 arpeggiator. The JP6 is the only vintage analog synth I know of that can arpeggiate both sides in split mode simultaneously. Most synths with arpeggiators usually only arpeggiate the lower part of a split. The Europa mod adds additional arpeggiator modes as well as allowing internal and external clocking, something the stock Jupiter can't do.

[crystalmsc]

reliability (as well as how difficult they are to fix/find spare parts for)

I've experienced good support from DSI, for this alone the PEK is a good choice.

So I'm looking for a hybrid synth as a replacement. I'm planning on using it mostly for bass, arps, some wavesequencing

that's exactly what I'm using the Evolver for and it really shine at that. and it will compliment the JX-10 very well as it did with the MKS-70.

[minime123]

these all sound quite different from one another, so its a decision youre going to have to make based on your personal preferences.
if you get a jp6, make sure its got the europa upgrade or have it added.
we're about to put another jp6 w europa up for sale. we'll be adding it to all jp6s we sell in the future.
you may also consider getting a waldorf microwave II or XT instead of the PPG as they're cheaper and will yield similar results.
mini

[WDW]

I have most of the synths being discussed so far. At the sake of covering all of the same territory again, I will try to keep my comments brief.

ESQ/SQ80 v PVS
Different sounding. The ESQ/SQ80 is 3 OSC whereas the PVS is 4. But it is the vector aspect of the PVS that gives it its unique sound.

PVS v PEK
Same wavetables, yes. Only 2 digital OSCs on the PEK versus the 4 on the PVS. And the PEK is not a vector synth.


Andromeda
This is my facvourite synth in my studio. It is THE analogue machine. The arpeggiator and step sequencer can run simultaneously on the same patch. And it is 16-part multitimbral with each patch having its own arp and seq. That means splits and layers with multiple arps and seqs. It outperforms the JP6 in this regard. And is has 10 more voices. And nothing that you are considering has the modulation capabilities of the Andromeda. It's the modern-day Matrix-12...and then some.


Jupiters
The MKS80 is my favourite of the Jupiters. Its sound is somewhere in between the JP6 and JP8. Although it lacks some of the feature of both the JP6 and JP8, such as filters and arps, it strikes a nice balance somewhere between the sound of the JP6 and JP8.

The JP6 is my second favourite Jupiter...and a close second at that. It's quite a diverse machine that does not get quite as smooth as the JP8 or MKS80 can get, but it can certainly get more aggressive. Still, I prefer the Andromeda, which is more akin soundwise to the MKS80 (if I were forced to compare it to a Jupiter).


JX8/10
A fabulous synth, which is one of the best pad machines ever created. Not as snappy as the JP6, but snappy enough.

The Andromeda, however, is far superior in the area of pads, which is the JX's strong suit.


Microwave
There are PPG wavetables available on the Web for the Microwave. Yep, you can get the PPG sound without the unreliability of the PPG.

Also, there are PVS wavetables out there. But this essentially turns the PVS from a vector synth to a wavetable synth. Not the same thing soundwise.

WD

[xpander]

i prefer the Prophet VS and SQ80 both over the PolyEvolver. my PolyEvolver actually developed a noise problem- you'll see a picture thread within days as i send off the voice board. the Prophet VS is one of those synthesizers that always sounds good and the SQ80 has the same quality sound although it obviously works differently.

i have a Jupiter 6, which is a solid synth, but would love a PPG Wave 2.2/2.3 some day...

basically, i recommend the Prophet VS over the others- as a digital/analog hybrid vector synth, it is definitely unique. beware that is has a sample/hold chip that is extinct, so fixing up a broken one would be an uphill battle.

the Jupiter-6 is very reliable and the parts seem to still circulate.