Added value of a real Korg MS-20 over the software emulation

[DenBaitos]

Hi,

I own the Korg Legacy Collection (software emulations for the Korg MS-20 and Polysix synths) for quite a while now and I am particulary impressed with the sounds I get from the Korg MS-20 emulation. So much that I consider buying a real MS-20.

I don't want to start a software vs. hardware debate here nor a digital vs. analog discussion. I just would like to ask people who both have the real MS-20 and the emulation, if a real MS-20 gives much added value sound wise.

According to this in depth review, it doesn't. But I find that hard to believe...
http://tweakheadz.com/reviews/review_ko ... ection.htm

Please share your experiences.

Thanks,
Maarten

[Automatic Gainsay]

All I can say is that in reading that article, I recognize that the author really has no idea of what the value of a vintage analog synthesizer is. He distinctly condemns and discounts all of the things you actually WANT in an analog synth, and applauds all of the things you specifically don't.

If you can say that you prefer the stability of the emulation, that you like all of the physical differences, and that you don't mind the aural differences... then you're basically saying you don't want analog at all in the first place.

The added value of a real MS-20 is comprised all of the things the author doesn't care about or doesn't like.
It is a physical device that you purchase when you want to have the physical experience of playing it. It is an analog device where its sound is variable and organic (although, for an analog synth, the MS-20 is not very organic sounding... it's pretty precise to begin with), and that lends a sound that you desire. It is monophonic, and you want it to be. It has full-sized keys for actual playing (come on, Author... you're glad the Legacy is tiny? The MS-20 is one of the smallest full-featured vintage analog synths in history... it is tiny ALREADY). You want its specific sound, not something that "sounds like" or "gets pretty close ("gets pretty close" = "does not actually sound like")." Etc. People who are looking for a good MIDI/software controllable synth which is very precise, has solid pitch, and can be controlled extensively via MIDI or software are just really not looking for the subtle benefits of analog synthesizers. If those things are more important to you, don't bother spending the money... it definitely won't be worth it (except for perceived status, but that isn't really worth it, either).

P.S. Analog is "sluggish?" Uhhh... right. Tuning instability? If his MS-20 is unstable tuning-wise, it's broken. The MS-20 holds pitch better than any analog synth (with VCOS) I've ever owned (and I've owned two of them).

[Solderman]

Sound-wise there are certain things I know are difficult to faithfully re-create in software which the MS-20 has in spades, namely filter saturation from feedback, non-linearities in the cutoff range from the two resonant filters in series, audio-rate modulation to several of the CV inputs, the sample & hold circuit, and of course the ESP. In the short time I spent with a Korg35 filter MS-20, I accrued a few sound clips, some of which keenly demonstrate sounds that the Legacy edition cannot faithfully re-create:


That being said, I think the Legacy edition MS20 VA sounds great and has lots of potential.

[Automatic Gainsay]

Zane, I think you have, in many ways, basically demonstrated the exact MS-20 sound that a person should seek this synth out for with this sound clip. This is basically the essence of what makes the MS-20 desirable. In addition, it's a great demonstration of the qualities you describe!

[RD9]

Sound-wise there are certain things I know are difficult to faithfully re-create in software which the MS-20 has in spades, namely filter saturation from feedback, non-linearities in the cutoff range from the two resonant filters in series, audio-rate modulation to several of the CV inputs, the sample & hold circuit, and of course the ESP. In the short time I spent with a Korg35 filter MS-20, I accrued a few sound clips, some of which keenly demonstrate sounds that the Legacy edition cannot faithfully re-create:


That being said, I think the Legacy edition MS20 VA sounds great and has lots of potential.

Excellent clip. I like how rich and dynamic the sounds are.

[code green]

...non-linearities in the cutoff range from the two resonant filters in series...

Is this what we're hearing when it breaks up in the first 2 seconds of the clip?

[CfNorENa]

The MS-20 holds pitch better than any analog synth (with VCOS) I've ever owned (and I've owned two of them).

The ambiguity of that pronoun is quite amusing.

I mean, really, AG, you've owned two analog synths in your life? Two? Wow! You must be a real expert or something!

[Theokretes]

My brief experience with software emulation things like that is neutral.
The software can make some pretty nice sounds, but, it's never like the original, no matter how convincing it may be. It is, in itself, an entirely different synthesizer.

But if the software has the sounds you like, great! Use it.

So the whole idea of emulators is rather a misnomer, you're not emulating anything, you're just attempting to recreate something that is *similar* to the original. In my opinion, it's really impossible to get the exact sounds as a hardware module, especially when it comes to tweaking parameters.

[StepLogik]

My brief experience with software emulation things like that is neutral.
The software can make some pretty nice sounds, but, it's never like the original, no matter how convincing it may be. It is, in itself, an entirely different synthesizer.

But if the software has the sounds you like, great! Use it.

So the whole idea of emulators is rather a misnomer, you're not emulating anything, you're just attempting to recreate something that is *similar* to the original. In my opinion, it's really impossible to get the exact sounds as a hardware module, especially when it comes to tweaking parameters.

this is basically my feelings on the matter. a lot of "emulations" aren't anywhere near convincing imo, but the software still makes pleasing sounds.

also, it is theoretically possible to get the exact sound of the analog hardware, but it just requires far more DSP power than is typically available. the amount of R&D to develop the algorithms would be staggering and you'd need a superior D/A converter to ensure your efforts aren't lost.

so, its cheaper to just emulate some basic tones of a synth and then sell it as an "emulation". would the jupiter-8 VST have sold as many copies if it hadn't been marketed as a jupiter-8 emulation?

[Solderman]

...non-linearities in the cutoff range from the two resonant filters in series...

Is this what we're hearing when it breaks up in the first 2 seconds of the clip?

It's more of a tonal behavior. How the overtones are attenuated as you turn the cutoff knobs counter-clockwise.

I tend to think of these VA's named after vintage classics synths as being inspired by the character of the originals, just as an artist is inspired by certain sounds they do well.

would the jupiter-8 VST have sold as many copies if it hadn't been marketed as a jupiter-8 emulation?

Yes but imo, JP8V sounded so close to the original, I sold my actual JP8. I can't say that would have been the case had I owned any other VA that shares the name of a vintage classic. Even UNO-62 doesn't get the envelope quite right.

[Psy_Free]

I sold my actual JP8

You ditched a JP8 for a bit of software which generates sounds from your PC sound card

Don't get me wrong, I think that using computers for music can be a good thing that makes plenty of stuff available relatively cheaply, thus removing music from the realms of being rich and obviously suits some people more than others for a whole host of other reasons too.

The thing I don't get (I only use synths, no computers, apart from patch editing & Sysex dumps), is how can all these vintage synth software emulation programs come anywhere near to the sound of the synths they are emulating when it all boils down to a chip in your PC for generating the sound.

This is a genuine cause of mystery/confusion for me, I'm not having a go at people who use this stuff or being curmudgeonly ('real men use real synths' type of thing). If they do sound even slightly close then it must take a h**l of a lot of work by the designers to do it.

[Solderman]

You ditched a JP8 for a bit of software which generates sounds from your PC sound card?

Yep. The real deal took up too much space, I wasn't playing it much, and it had some technical problems. I have some samples I took, plus a few recordings I like to listen to, and am fine with that. The JP8 is a performance synth with a large number of sonic sweet spots. I'm not a performer, and didn't love the sound enough to justify finding a replacement with no compromises.

You could apply the same thing to Korg Legacy MS-20. It does its own thing, and is only of interest to people who like using software.

Btw, I tried to sell the Jupiter 8 here for a pittance compared to what other people were charging, being honest about the technical problems. It took months before a buyer stepped up. There are a handful of sounds only it could make that I miss, but not enough to lose any sleep over. The person who sold it to me had it sitting in a garage for 14 years. He loved his $70,000 piano alot more. It's all personal prerogative, ultimately.

[Automatic Gainsay]

The MS-20 holds pitch better than any analog synth (with VCOS) I've ever owned (and I've owned two of them).

The ambiguity of that pronoun is quite amusing.

I mean, really, AG, you've owned two analog synths in your life? Two? Wow! You must be a real expert or something!

[Automatic Gainsay]

I think at core that analog synths are specialty items for people who are really looking for a subtle coloration of sound/ response and a physical interaction with their instrument. Those are the two reasons why a person should pursue possession of an analog synth (from a musical standpoint). The question is, is the amount of money you'll have to pay equivalent to your desire for those relatively subtle aspects? I think for most people the answer is "no," and that's perfectly reasonable.
As a result, I think the motivation most have for the pursuit of analog synthesizers, and especially the expensive ones, is some sort of perceived status. Status is a stupid thing to put money towards, especially if you don't really have a need or specific desire for what the object does.
Analog synths, as it is oft-stated, will not improve your music. And, really, they don't give you any status. They inspire some minor coveting in other people, but no one thinks you're cool or cooler than you are simply because of an object you possess. Mostly, they just think you have a lot of money.
Really, what it comes down to is whether or not what you has inspires you to make the music you like. While most software emulations are missing some aspects that would make them sound indistinguishable from that which they emulate, they are mostly fantastically useful instruments with added functionality. Trying to simulate a musical instrument is a terrible waste of time in comparison to being inspired by what you have to create output you enjoy.

[Psy_Free]

Yep. The real deal took up too much space

I hear that ! I guess one of the main advantages of PC based synths is the ability to have about 50 different synths all contained in 1 little box, leaving the rest of your house available for normal stuff.

As a result, I think the motivation most have for the pursuit of analog synthesizers, and especially the expensive ones, is some sort of perceived status

You might be right there, though I can't imagine what kind of status people think they bestow, coolness ? How ? The general perception of 'synth heads' amongst the greater society is that they are nerds & geeks (maybe it's cool to be a nerd or geek these days ). I think a degree of collectability and perceived classicness comes into it as well, in the same way that some guitarists covet a 1959 Fender Strat, some synthesisists covet an ARP 2600 or an EMS Synthi.

An old friend of mine, who had a serious collection of vintage synths, once said to me years ago when he caught me using a patch on an old Casio synth, "why have you got that piece of c**p, it's not even a real synth". I replied "so what, it sounds good and it works for what I'm doing". He couldn't see beyond the fact that it was a £30 Casio 'toy' keyboard and not a Memorymoog.

So, Marty, my philosophy of life is : if you like it, use it. (and then have a good time all of the time).