Your brain is smarter than a panned sound

[th0mas]

Maybe this is well known in the sound production world, but I was just thinking a bit about panning and came to a realization. It's lacking a key indicator that our brain uses to place a sound to the left or to the right.

That indicator thats missing is a time delta between when the sound plays to the closest dominant ear and when it plays to the farther ear. I think I learnt it from science class back in high school? Something like that. If you record something in stereo properly it'll already have this delay since the sound will reach the mic's at different times, but if you pan a mono sound it will be off and the quieter side should be delay'd slightly. I guess the way to simulate this would be to convert a mono signal to stereo, turn down one side and also delay it by a few ms.

[nathanscribe]

If you wanted to go that direction, you could work out a 'space' for the sound - a virtual distance and location with respect to the supposed listener - and gauge the delay between signals by working out how long the sound would actually take to reach each ear.

[MitchK1989]

maybe this is sort of what you're looking for?

http://wavearts.com/products/plugins/panorama/

[Tyler2000]

I met somebody once who told me about using a slight delay to get a big spread on zir tracks. They said it worked great for them.

[th0mas]

I met somebody once who told me about using a slight delay to get a big spread on zir tracks. They said it worked great for them.

I think that's what a lot of the "stereo widening" tools do on programs like t-racks, if you mean to do this on the complete mix. it does increase the stereo effect but not in as purposeful a way as delaying a single sound.

[Concept_Control]

I'm not sure if I'm just tired, but surely what you're talking about happens when we're listening to our mixes generally?

If I pan a mono sound to the left, and listen to my mix, my right ear is still going to hear it, but as you say with an amazingly small delay and a little quieter.

Now if you add a "manual" oppositely panned delay into your mix, the sound will come out the right speaker too, so you'll loose your stereo definition.

[GeneralBigbag]

I met somebody once who told me about using a slight delay to get a big spread on zir tracks. They said it worked great for them.

I think that's what a lot of the "stereo widening" tools do on programs like t-racks, if you mean to do this on the complete mix. it does increase the stereo effect but not in as purposeful a way as delaying a single sound.

Stereo widening tools also subtract each channel (L +R) from each other, so that you get a more pronounced difference between sides. This is why, if you really crank it, you loose any definition in the centre.

[piRoN]

There's a very good reason why this isn't usually done. If the mix is then summed to mono (such as in a small radio or whatever) the delay will create a comb filtering flangy sound. It's a great way to introduce phase issues to your mix.

[aeon]

Maybe this is well known in the sound production world, but I was just thinking a bit about panning and came to a realization. It's lacking a key indicator that our brain uses to place a sound to the left or to the right.

That indicator thats missing is a time delta between when the sound plays to the closest dominant ear and when it plays to the farther ear....I guess the way to simulate this would be to convert a mono signal to stereo, turn down one side and also delay it by a few ms.

This is the principle behind Haas delay and panning.

It can work wonderfully, but as mentioned, should be used with care if the mix is going to be collapsed to mono.

Another way to get this kind of spatial localization is to use a Roland RSS unit, which can pan sounds not only on the left-right axis, but front-back and up as well.


cheers,
Ian

[sacredcow]

Actually, I have heard that the delay is so small your brain doesn't register it. Sensing what direction a sound comes from has more to do with coloring by you ears' physical dynamics of oncoming sounds from various directions and consequent tonal difference between the two ears, but your brain registers what both ears hear at too-close-to-approximately-the-same-time for the slight difference between the times the same sound reaches different ears to matter. the threshold for noticeable difference is 40ms and the diff between a sound reaching one ear and the other is definitely lower than that.

Haas delay and panning has to do with difference in locational perception of two distinct and different sounds based on their varying locations from the listener and the differences in the time they reach him, not the difference in time between what your two ears hear (because, like i said, it's neglible)

[Stab Frenzy]

You guys are overthinking this.

Sound travels at 340m/s.

The maximum delay time between your ears is the time it takes for sound to travel the distance from one ear to the other. Let's say you have a massive head and it's 25cm.

Calculating the delay it's 0.7ms, which the ear will hear as a difference of phase rather than a delay. Much more noticeable will be the tonal differences as low frequencies are more able to curve around the head than high frequencies.

[nathanscribe]

low frequencies are more able to curve around the head

That's an album title if ever I heard one.