Trying to get a recording setup

culturedslob · Post by **culturedslob** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:41 pm

hey everyone

i was just wondering if someone would be able to help me out. im a drummer and guitar player, and in the next couple of months i plan to invest in some vintage synths and other hardware to make some experimental music.

i know that to record i will need microphones, cables, a couple effects for compression, reverb, etc, a mixer, probably 16 tracks i assume, and a recording machine. i definitely want an analog tape machine, and really not a computer.

i was just wondering what tape machines you guys might recommend I look at? i want something that is not HUGE, but does everything a serious analog recording endeavor would require. something that is practical and manageable.

i listen to alot of Squarepusher, and i know that his old setup produced some really interesting music, but it wasnt very big or crazy at all, i remember seeing just his couple of synthesizers, a 16 track mixer, some monitors, and a tape machine.

i really have no idea what to even look for, so a couple examples o f some equipment would be greatly appreciated.

Post by **Stab Frenzy** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:15 am

culturedslob wrote:i definitely want an analog tape machine, and really not a computer.

i was just wondering what tape machines you guys might recommend I look at? i want something that is not HUGE, but does everything a serious analog recording endeavor would require. something that is practical and manageable.

Tape machines are NOT practical or manageable. If you want a tape machine that's fine, but don't expect it to be easy to use. A computer is a whole lot easier to use and gives you a whole lot more options, especially for experimental stuff.

Not saying you shouldn't want to use a tape machine, but I wouldn't recommend it for someone who's just getting in to recording at all.

Post by **wiss** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:16 am

Budget?

Can you repair things your self ?

dont over looking just grabbing an older 24 track mixing board and some ADAT's.

Z · Post by Z » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:33 am

Back in the 90's, I used a Tascam 238 Syncassette. It is a 3 space rack mount 8 track machine that uses standard Phillips cassettes. They were around $1200 new almost 20 years go, but I see them on eBay selling for just a few hundred bucks at the most. Many times you can also get the wired remote control which comes in handy if you're recoding by yourself and you are not within reach of the machine.

You will also need an external mixer to feed your instrument to and mix the tracks. I used an Alesis 1622, the 1st 8 channels for inputs to the mixer with its XLR inputs and direct outs and 9-16 for track machine returns.

One main thing to worry about with a tape machine is its age & maintenence. These machines are old, many used and abused. Heads could be bad, motors & belts wear out, etc.

I'm with you about not using computers, even though they ARE the way to go these days. I miss the "physical" element of using hardware.

Best of luck!

BTW: Click on the "WWW" link below and listen to my track "Ascension" which was recorded around '94 with the Tascam 238.

seamonkey · Post by **seamonkey** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:40 pm

While it's nice to have a field of reference from a recording artist who we enjoy it can become a slippery slope when trying to emulate their gear.
There is nothing wrong with wanting analog gear but you need to gather a lot of information before investing money in it.
If you are talking about a multi-track reel to reel, how many tracks are you looking at? also tape is getting harder to find, there is a company called RMG who still make it but it's expensive. I just paid $17.00 for a 1200ft reel, a 1800ft reel runs $22usd.

If you are serious about trying analog recording I would recommend something like the Tascam 688 midistudio. They can be purchased on ebay for around $300-$400usd. There are a couple on ebay you could do a search on and have a look to see if it would fit your needs for now. Keep in mind they are a cassette machine but have very good specs 40-16,000hz. Cassette tapes XLll type are still available, in fact I've bought them at Walgreens for less than $2.00usd.

You have a 20 input mixer, 10 are XLR. This would allow you to get your feet wet with analog hardware recording at a minimal expense. If you were to go the multi-track reel to reel AND a mixer you are looking at a major investment.

Here are some specs for the Tascam 688:8 track cassette recorder
20 inputs (10 each: XLR and 1/4 inch)
10-channel mixer with separate volume controls for additional 10 inputs
2 effects aux sends, 4 effects aux returns
inserts on all channels
separate outs for every channel
EQ: Low, Mid (parametric) and High on every channel
independent monitoring section
large 12-channel meter bridge
100 user-saveable routing/mixing "scene" settings
large routing/mixing configuration LCD display screen
large counter display
variable tape speed
full DBX noise reduction
two headphone outputs
MIDI and SMPTE synch
punch-in and punch-out (manual and auto)
looping
full MIDI implementation

Try to move slowly, before buying synths I would try to learn the recording end of it first using the instruments you have and perhaps one outboard effects box.

Good luck

culturedslob · Post by **culturedslob** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:57 pm

wow thanks alot everyone.

i think that i actually dont even know enough to really get a better understanding even with all of this information. its really over my head still.

what is the difference between a "16 track tape machine" and a "DAT recorder"? or rather how/why would someone use each of them together?

on a large multitrack tape machine, how usually is the final product put on to a listening medium (CD, vinyl, etc..)?

sorry if i seem ignorant. i really appreciate everyones time!

Z · Post by Z » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:14 pm

culturedslob wrote:what is the difference between a "16 track tape machine" and a "DAT recorder"? or rather how/why would someone use each of them together?

on a large multitrack tape machine, how usually is the final product put on to a listening medium (CD, vinyl, etc..)?

There are 2 steps to the recording process: tracking and mixdown. You use a multi track machine to record different musical parts, ie: bass, rhythm guitar, lead, guitar, lead vocals, backing vocals, drums (usually put kick & snares on their own tracks and all others on 2 "stereo" tracks. Once all the musical parts are recirded onto tracks to best of musicians' abilities with the cleanest sound and signal to noise ratio - on to mix down.

The enigneer then takes all of these tracks and tweaks their volume levels, panning, EQ, FX, etc. Once the tracks are tweaked you make a stereo mixdown onto a 2 track reel-to-reel, DAT, CD recorder, computer, etc.

If you ever get a chance to check out "The Making of Dark Side of the Moon" DVD, that would be a fun and interesting way to check out some of the behind the scenes of the recording process.

Hope this helps.

Post by **tallowwaters** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:15 pm

You should google search. Tons of information just searching analog recording tape, etc. Once you get a better idea of what the terminology is and how things work, come back here and ask.

I mean, honestly, you can figure out the difference betweet ADAT/DAT and reel to reel tape in 5 minutes.

Sorry if that seems harsh, but that is how thousands of us had to learn, and in the end, it will really only make you smarter if you answer some of these questions yourself.

And if that doesnt seem appealing, the best advice I can offer is to go out and pick up a cheap Tascam Portastudio. Figure it out, learn it up and down. No better way to learn the basics (for me, at least) than to just jump right the h**l in, eyes closed and hands out.

seamonkey · Post by **seamonkey** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:16 pm

A 16 track recorder has 16 recording heads, as the tape passes over the heads you can record on each of the tracks. Think of the width of tape as a freeway with cars all in their own lanes heading the same direction. You can record all the tracks at one time or one track at a time. If you have an 8 track deck you can record 8 tracks, 4 track=4 etc.
A DAT tape recorder records only 2 tracks and is used mainly for mixing down from the 4-8 or 16 track machine. DAT aren't really used anymore because they are only 16 bit and you can get a higher rate on the computer.
Many people will mix down to DAW software such as Logic, Cubase, etc.
Once it has been mixed down it is in WAV file format, you then need a program to convert it to MP3 or other format. Once you've done that you can burn it to cd with your cd burner program.
Hope that helps.

GeneralBigbag · Post by **GeneralBigbag** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:20 pm

seamonkey wrote: Once it has been mixed down it is in WAV file format, you then need a program to convert it to MP3 or other format. Once you've done that you can burn it to cd with your cd burner program.
Hope that helps.

I don't think you'd want to be burning mp3s onto CD if you had the wavs...

seamonkey · Post by **seamonkey** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:37 pm

My reason for saying that was to the best of my knowledge(which is limited btw-lol)not all cd players recognize WAV files but an MP3 can be played on just about anything.

GeneralBigbag · Post by **GeneralBigbag** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:48 pm

If you're burning mp3 files to a CD which is meant to play in a CD player though, they're converted to 16/44.

I think we're talking about the difference between burning a data cd and an audio CD - CDs burned as data CDs won't play in CD players regardless of format because they won't have a recognisable index file.

As I understand it, the very first thing on an audio CD (right at the centre) is a directory for the CD player to scan so that it knows where the tracks are on the disc, which is what burning an audio CD does to the disc.

seamonkey · Post by **seamonkey** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:58 pm

Doh! you mean I've been converting my WAV files from Tracktion to MP3 when I didn't have to??
I honestly thought my cd player wouldn't play WAV files, this is fantastic information to know and I truly feel like a blumbering bobblehead.LOL
I was referring to audio cd btw and not data.

Post by **Stab Frenzy** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:00 pm

Sorry to say it seamonkey, but I don't think you should be giving advice to people till you figure a few things out yourself.

seamonkey · Post by **seamonkey** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:34 pm

thanks for your advice stab at least I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong and I walk away from this thread having learned something.
I think I could offer some advice where to put that thumb but I won't.