Slim Phatty or new Midi SEM?

[gunark]

Simple question but simple answer? I make electronic stuff with a progressive slant, MIDI'd into Live. Looking for a modern analogue VCO mono to join my Pro One / CS01 / Jen (Mopho KB will be joined by a Tetra to become poly).

Love the Moog bass and the general sound since Tomita's snowflakes are dancing. Also love the big OB sound since Rush, with the big wide sound and crispy open filters. The SEM has the nobs, the ob filter and early Oberheims are quite rare here in the UK too but the SP not only sounds ace, it has memories and THAT ladder filter.

So, SP or the new MIDI SEM?

[Psy_Free]

Neither. Go for an MFB Kraftzwerg instead.

http://www.mfberlin.de/Produkte/Musikel ... nth3e.html

[Solderman]

The problem with the Kraftzwerg primarily is its dodgy Midi interface and occasionally its tuning is unstable. Mine has this weird grounding issue that can cause the VCA output to suddenly become noisy. Some people don't like those tiny knobs either.

I think you already nailed it. The SEM can do bass, but it's a bit different since the filter is 2 pole and the VCO's are discrete. Here's one I did on mine that is a good example:

The SEM envelopes do not have a distinct release, but rather share one control for both decay and release. The SP has full ADSR. The SEM's LFO is only a single triangle wave. The SEM also lacks a noise source and triangle waveform for VCO.

The SEM's interface is a very good design in dialing in a patch quickly, but you may still find patch recall more useful. Beyond that, I always recommend trying to be exposed to as many demos of each as possible when you don't get the privilege of playing them yourself.

[gunark]

Thanks!

I had looked at the Kraftzwerg and it does look good, a possible gateway to modular too. But I am a little concerned by it's build and the issues I've read before about the midi. I may be picking an MFB 503 up at some point too so I'll see how I like the general MFB build then. It is tempting for that 3 VCO scifi weirdness only semi/modulars can do, and patch cables ALWAYS look cool...but then I could later spring for a CP251 for the SP.

I think the SEM has more vintage caché than the SP, being more or less a genuine vintage instrument. The OB sound is arguably as recognisable at the Moog one too, albeit without the listener maybe realising that it's OB. Even though it's mono, does the SEM have that top end fizz the OB series have? Subdivisions style?

Strangely one thing I kind of count a little against the LP/SP is it's ubiquity, and there the SEM is a great alternative. But they are ubiquitous for a reason - they sound ace (unlike the SEM I played and loved the phatty, sadly SEMs are thin on the ground here), so maybe if I got one I should just work harder to get More original sounds.

Also, how will they play with my other Monos? Would the buttersmooth SP counterpoint the Pro One's aggression for example?

[Z]

I would go with the SEM since it would compliment your ProOne nicely. The Phatty and ProOne pretty much cover the same ground, and after all, the original SEM was pretty much made to compliment the MiniMoog.

I was pretty impressed with the Kraftzwerg when Solderman brought his over to my place one day. To me, it has an Oberheim sound to it. The 'zwerg certainly has more bang-for-the-buck than the SEM.

[Solderman]

I haven't run into any problems with the Kraftzwerg's build quality as of yet, other than whatever is causing the VCA to suddenly change its gain state. The Midi issue is not only that it can't take too much data without glitching, but it also just randomly hangs and requires a power cycle of the synth.

Know that the new SEM is vintage design, but with modern components. It makes a difference. Tom O told me this is why the new SEM's have self-oscillation in part of their filter cutoff range, whereas the vintage ones don't. The "fizz" is definitely there, and I actually find it annoying sometimes, depending on the sound I want to achieve. The notch setting between LP and HP filter is a good example. But being subtractive synthesis, it's always better to have too much than not enough. The notch filter btw, works really well for externally processed signals.

I used to own a Pro~One and wouldn't necessarily always call its tone aggressive. In fact using feedback of audio out back to audio in, I was able to get some very smooth sounds from it with resonance set just right. All I can say is you have a 4 pole filter on the Pro~One that thins out quite alot with high resonance, but seems to have a nice round sound without it. The SEM filter design actually prevents that rolloff with increased resonance, but isn't quite as smooth. In fact, I think the SEM sounds a bit thin with zero resonance, so usually it stays at around 20% at minimum. I can't comment on the SP in this regard, but you said you've played one before, so that might be enough to go on.

[gunark]

I guess the aggression is partly my patches - I tend not to use so much resonance either so maybe that's where the smoothness comes. Hmm, food for thought. Back to the 'tube and the 'cloud then...

Edit - for some reason I had the SEM pegged around £750 but it seems I should be adding another £225 to that! I'm picking up a Tetra and have been offered a SP thrown in for about £600. Gonna have to see if the SEM is worth that much more and if I could scrape that together.

Those lucky Americans, vintage synths seem to be a less expensive hobby that in Europe!

[Solderman]

A final SEM observation: Its envelopes seem to me to have a non-linear slope. It actually takes some effort to make it not "snap", even at maximum sustain, for some reason. Compression could mask this, but it's a part of its character that has to be considered. Also the first 10% or so of the attack knob seems to cover too much temporal range, so setting attack can sometimes take more fiddling than expected.

[gunark]

A final SEM observation: Its envelopes seem to me to have a non-linear slope. It actually takes some effort to make it not "snap", even at maximum sustain, for some reason. Compression could mask this, but it's a part of its character that has to be considered. Also the first 10% or so of the attack knob seems to cover too much temporal range, so setting attack can sometimes take more fiddling than expected.

Thanks - maybe the SEM isn't for me then, or yet anyway. Save some cash and hope an OBsomething pops up one day maybe. I've seen an OBSX for £1200 that sounds beautiful but is a relative behemoth that likely will never have midi and will need general TLC so it stays working.

[calaverasgrande]

Those lucky Americans, vintage synths seem to be a less expensive hobby that in Europe!

Surely Crumars and Siels are cheap on your side of the pond?
There are several European synths I would love to add to my aresenal.
I cant help but think I would have better luck finding an EMS or Oscar at a garage sale in the UK than in California. Though Sequential was just down the road...

[gunark]

Those lucky Americans, vintage synths seem to be a less expensive hobby that in Europe!

Surely Crumars and Siels are cheap on your side of the pond?
There are several European synths I would love to add to my aresenal.
I cant help but think I would have better luck finding an EMS or Oscar at a garage sale in the UK than in California. Though Sequential was just down the road...

Short answer - no, not really. Siels don't come up much and Crumars reach their value. As for old radiophonics and mad professor type analogue synths like EMS showing up, yes possible but as likely as that GX1 being sold as an organ too..

[nathanscribe]

Just want to add: the LP/SP filter can be set to 1, 2, 3 or 4 pole. You're not tied to the Moog sound, exactly. I leave mine on 4-pole mode mostly, but it's nice to have the option.