Drum Machines -- Vst or Hardware??

[ShropshireFad]

Up until now i've been using a selection of vintage drum machine samples through the native battery vst, but the bass and the snare just haven't got the beef i'm hearing on any decent electro-disco production. I'm wanting something like you get on this guys kit (http://www.myspace.com/thebabeinthewoods) but my vsts just feel too thin.
Either i'm overlooking some sort of fattening technique i can do with the samples in logic or i need to get my hands on either a) better vst drum software or b) an actual drum machine..

Anyone shed some light??

..

I've heard the elektron sps-1 is a nice all-rounder but it's seems quite techno. That's fine cos i'd want something with a couple of strings to its bow, just so long as i can get nice high quality disco bass and snare like the ones i just linked on the myspace.

If a decent piece of drum software can cut the mustard -- anyone have any recommendations?

[balma]

VERMONA ANALOG DRUM should give you the sound you want.

Pure analog drum analogs that cannot be emulated by VSTs, it has one OUTPUT per voice (in total 8 voices with their own audio output)
http://images.google.co.cr/imgres?imgur ... N%26um%3D1

[kuroichi]

As many drum machines as I have you'd think I'd agree with the above...

but I don't.

For one the drum sounds I heard on that myspace werent analog. It just seemed like a Linn or similar eeprom style drum sound, swamped in processing.

Unless youre really into a particular sound I wouldnt recommend getting a standalone drum machine as each one contains its own characteristics and limitations, unless youre just into drum machines in general.

There are lots of techniques for 'thickening' up a sound, but look into processing and eq more before you go spending money.

[ShropshireFad]

As many drum machines as I have you'd think I'd agree with the above...

but I don't.

For one the drum sounds I heard on that myspace werent analog. It just seemed like a Linn or similar eeprom style drum sound, swamped in processing.

Unless youre really into a particular sound I wouldnt recommend getting a standalone drum machine as each one contains its own characteristics and limitations, unless youre just into drum machines in general.

There are lots of techniques for 'thickening' up a sound, but look into processing and eq more before you go spending money.

Thanks for the advice.

Kuroichi could you recommend any drum software/sample packages conducive to contemporary electro-disco stylings??

EQ -- for sure -- i don't know why i hadn't throught of that...
But by processing -- what are we talking about, aside from simple reverb and distortion?

[balma]

I tried to recommend the Vermona, since it's an analog that goes very farway from the VST, but it's a $900 drum machine.... sorry didn't hear the Myspace sounds (banned from this server)

Actually I use a Korg Electribe ESX1 as as drum machine, despite I have other ones. Is flexible and unique since it's a sampler, but with vacuum tube audio output, giving a nice feeling to the sounds. With sampling drum machines you can also have access to a wide spectrum of sounds, since you go wherever you want with sampling and resampling.
Processing sounds trought line in of other synths, resampling, adding effects, compressors, and then, resampling are just a few ways to get thick sounds

[kuroichi]

Some of the processing tricks balma mentions might help. From what I've heard of the newer disco/electro styled music the drums involve a lot eq, gating and layering. For example, gate a strong attack from a sample and layer it with a heavy sub bass kick while EQing each part.

Obviously compression can create a sense of thickness or a pumping sound to drums. But can also affect the dynamics and colour. As balma mentions, resampling and effects can help too.

I say your best bet for now would be to get some free samples of things like the linndrum, and oberheim DMX. And experiment with them. Try layering them with analog sounds etc.

As for software, use what your comfortable with and get some VSTs. I couldn't really recommend any packages that are particular to that style (maybe someone else knows some?), but I think that you won't really need to spend to get the sounds you want anyway.

[Dj Pound]

Hardware all day, everyday

But by all means use what you have at you're disposal to its fullest capabilities.

[D-rex]

I had this same problem when I was using ultrabeat in logic for drums. It just didn't sound good. Then I bought an Akai Xr20 and even though it's not analog, it sounds 10 times better then logic ever did. So in my opinion hardware beats software 10 to 1. A friend of mine has a Korg esx and it sounds really good for a digital sampler too, just a little harder to use then the xr20. I still want to buy an analog drum machine sometime in the future because nothing sounds better then the real deal. Maybe a linndrum II if it ever comes out

[Zamise]

Put some reverb on the snares. Thats all I know.

[SWAN]

nice interesting music.

I would say that using a hardware machine might get you some added punch to the sound - but not an analogue drum machine - perhaps an old sampler using LinnDrum or DMX sounds it would give your drum sounds some colour.

http://www.goldbaby.nz - check out the Custom DMX pack!

However a lot of the impact in these tunes will be due to EQing, COmpression and 2nd/3rd harmonic saturation. ideally you want to do this with analogue hardware outboard. However you may get some results using UAD plugins. However for real beef and colour - hardware is best...

This music is very coloured and not clean. Its really much easier to get this type of sound using old hardware samplers, analogue synths and a mixing desk. Doing it all in a DAW will be tricky as they sound so clean and hifi.

Also - on some of the drum snares-there is a good dose of reverb...

If you want to go hardware route I;d suggest picking up a cheap Akai s950 for your drum samples - not a drum machine. If you can then EQ and compress those drum sounds - you should be pretty near...

If you want to try it ITB - Get a UAD2 card and the FATSO plugin. Also look up Acustica Audio 'Nebula' plugin. Also PSP Mixpack has a useful plugin called 'MixSaturator2'. You can always buy a cheap hardware compressor and run your drum buss out of your computer thru and back in-that will also make a big difference.

I myself also produce 'Nu-Disco' hence the interest in this area...

[ShropshireFad]

I tried to recommend the Vermona, since it's an analog that goes very farway from the VST, but it's a $900 drum machine.... sorry didn't hear the Myspace sounds (banned from this server)

Actually I use a Korg Electribe ESX1 as as drum machine, despite I have other ones. Is flexible and unique since it's a sampler, but with vacuum tube audio output, giving a nice feeling to the sounds. With sampling drum machines you can also have access to a wide spectrum of sounds, since you go wherever you want with sampling and resampling.
Processing sounds trought line in of other synths, resampling, adding effects, compressors, and then, resampling are just a few ways to get thick sounds

By resampling do you mean bouncing a recording of a sample and then re-sampling from that audio recording, so as to build up the sound? Can this be done within a piece of sampler hardware as well as on the computer sequencer?

[ShropshireFad]

Some of the processing tricks balma mentions might help. From what I've heard of the newer disco/electro styled music the drums involve a lot eq, gating and layering. For example, gate a strong attack from a sample and layer it with a heavy sub bass kick while EQing each part.

Obviously compression can create a sense of thickness or a pumping sound to drums. But can also affect the dynamics and colour. As balma mentions, resampling and effects can help too.

I say your best bet for now would be to get some free samples of things like the linndrum, and oberheim DMX. And experiment with them. Try layering them with analog sounds etc.

As for software, use what your comfortable with and get some VSTs. I couldn't really recommend any packages that are particular to that style (maybe someone else knows some?), but I think that you won't really need to spend to get the sounds you want anyway.

Are we talking about a gating an AMP/VOLUME attack? Or something else?

Also, - when you say layering, are you talking about the sampling and re-sampling like Balma, or simply trying combinations of different snare samples, like a bassy snare with a clap?

Cheers**

[ShropshireFad]

nice interesting music.

I would say that using a hardware machine might get you some added punch to the sound - but not an analogue drum machine - perhaps an old sampler using LinnDrum or DMX sounds it would give your drum sounds some colour.

http://www.goldbaby.nz - check out the Custom DMX pack!

However a lot of the impact in these tunes will be due to EQing, COmpression and 2nd/3rd harmonic saturation. ideally you want to do this with analogue hardware outboard. However you may get some results using UAD plugins. However for real beef and colour - hardware is best...

This music is very coloured and not clean. Its really much easier to get this type of sound using old hardware samplers, analogue synths and a mixing desk. Doing it all in a DAW will be tricky as they sound so clean and hifi.

Also - on some of the drum snares-there is a good dose of reverb...

If you want to go hardware route I;d suggest picking up a cheap Akai s950 for your drum samples - not a drum machine. If you can then EQ and compress those drum sounds - you should be pretty near...

If you want to try it ITB - Get a UAD2 card and the FATSO plugin. Also look up Acustica Audio 'Nebula' plugin. Also PSP Mixpack has a useful plugin called 'MixSaturator2'. You can always buy a cheap hardware compressor and run your drum buss out of your computer thru and back in-that will also make a big difference.

I myself also produce 'Nu-Disco' hence the interest in this area...

Thanks for the advice

...

The analogue hardware outboard - i'm guessing this does apply to the akai digital sampler you mentioned?

And by championing hardware, i guess you are referring to hardware DIGITAL SAMPLERS as well as analog drum machines/analog samplers..

[balma]

Having several hardware devices and samplers and a little bit of curiosity and exploration can give intereseting results.

For example, I create several 4-12 waves percussion patches on an EMU command station,.,...


I spend long nights making "patch frames" I mean, a patch that you don't need to edit too much in order to obtain different sounds, just browsing the internal waves database with the modwheel.

I preprogram filter, amp and effect settings, and save that patch. After some time programming, I start to browse and select aleatory internal waves for those pataches and save them.

I make the same work on the Waldorf Q, but creating RING-oriented patches. The Micro Q has LINE IN. I store multiple patches like white noises with a decaying pitch at the end, add effects. After some time programming again, I create a nice selection of patches, oriented to be linked to the line input.

Now, I start to sample patch combinations between the sounds of the Waldorf and the EMU. I try to use high quality and short cables, try to get rid of any recording noises.

I use a Roland SP808 ex, or a Yamaha A4000 to sampling the emu playing throught the line in of the Waldorf MicroQ.

After some work sampling, I have 32 new different samples stored on two banks of the roland SP 808.

Now is time to NORMALIZE, cut, chop, accurate start point, erase noises at the end of the sample. Equalizing.

Second stage:

I use a pure analog, or FM synth, and make patch edition. Create snares or pumpin analog sounds. Send them trought the LINE IN of the Roland V synth.

I have on the V synth, preprogrammed sets of patches that will fit with percussion sounds that come throught the LINE IN of the V synth.

Now, here I try to apply different rules. Internal effects are added, and resampled inside the V synth, change the ways that the LINE IN is ringed to the internal engine., etc etc.

I make the same process, but now, using the optical output of the V synth, to the optical input of the SP 808.

I get another 32 drum sounds,but comming from totally different sources.

Now comes the sample mangling part: Merging samples, sample layering.

I start to search compatibilities between all the samples I obtained. Everything becomes a mess, I obtaing lots, lots of new weird samples from there.

Diversification of the patch sources, experimentation, creativity.

I can obtain dozens of self made original thick and crispy drum sounds from this complicated but really fun process.

The samples that I just created, are .wav format. I save them to a PC.

Then, I load all these new drums, to a smart media card. And load them to a KORG ELECTRIBE ESX1.

A $3000 equipment used to create samples in order to be loaded on a $400 sampler.

Why all this work, to end on a cheap sampler?

Because you can manipulate those user samples, on the ESX1, on a fast, smart, intuitive and funny way.
you should hear how this tiny sampler can sound, with some dedication and commitment, specially with this sample database on its tiny memory.



Now I'm not trying to say: get a Roland SP 808ex, a Waldorf Q, a V synth and a EMU command station.

Just trying to give you perspective

These experimental process and sample edition, can be done with multiple gear. Market is plenty of options. You can use elektron, spectralis, Roland SP 303, BOSS, Akai MPC, etc etc etc, and apply a creative process of getting synergy between them, in order to get new original and very useful patches for your music production.

This a process that must be full of experimenting and practice. Not all the resulting sampled drumsounds will be useful, but for sure, lots of them will do their job.

And a good reason for loving hardware indeed!

[kuroichi]

Are we talking about a gating an AMP/VOLUME attack? Or something else?

Also, - when you say layering, are you talking about the sampling and re-sampling like Balma, or simply trying combinations of different snare samples, like a bassy snare with a clap?

Cheers**

I mean gating the sound using an envelope, and by layering I mean just that litterally combining two or more sounds, like a snare and clap as you mentioned.