JD-800 I need convincing

drsynth · Post by **drsynth** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:46 pm

First off, I don't have room for many more keyboards, so I have a few choices to make. I may have to sell something. I'm out of midi channels and physical room. I usually hate these kind of posts, but I'm really at a crossroads here...

I already own several decent VA synths and a bit of analog, but for the last year or so I keep returning to a GAS cramp over the JD-800. There are several for sale in the US $750 range and so I need some serious reasons for going down the road to this purchase.

My VA's include;
Nord Lead 2x, Waldorf: MicroQ, MicroWaveXT, Korg R3, Virus TI, Oberheim Matrix6 and bundles of Arturia, GForce, VirSyn, NI and LinPlug stuff.

Analogs are DotCom, PAIA modular, Arp & DSI P08.

Other misc FM etc. are DX7IID, TX816.

Beyond the obvious "great pads" comments about this synth, what are it's benefits that I don't already find in the above VA gear?

Most of my music is centered on big thick soundtrack. Berlin School wannabee, ambient space synth c**p. So keep that in mind.

Thanks for any useful thoughts in advance.

-David

Oh, and BTW I can also easily justify an AN1x instead if there is little difference in sound quality. I still prefer the Roland for some reason. I just have never played either so I don't have a reference.

Post by **braincandy** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:57 pm

The AN1x and JD-800 are completely different synths. I know you probably know that, but it's not really comparing two of the same thing. I say this I've owned an AN1x and sold my JD-990 this past week.

You mentioned you're short on room--have you considered a JD-990 + Vintage Expansion?

I don't deal in super-specific genres (things like Berlin School), but for epic soundtrack-like stuff, I think the JD's (+ Vintage expansion) pads = tits.

crystalmsc · Post by **crystalmsc** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:26 pm

The JD will do great soundtrack type of sound, and there's no rompler in the set up yet.

drsynth · Post by **drsynth** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:37 pm

braincandy wrote:The AN1x and JD-800 are completely different synths. I know you probably know that, but it's not really comparing two of the same thing. I say this I've owned an AN1x and sold my JD-990 this past week.

You mentioned you're short on room--have you considered a JD-990 + Vintage Expansion?

I don't deal in super-specific genres (things like Berlin School), but for epic soundtrack-like stuff, I think the JD's (+ Vintage expansion) pads = tits.

The JD-990 looks pretty interesting. May be even more synth than the 800, but the programmability looks a bit undernourished.

I don't really know the differences between the sound and capabilities of the AN1x or the JD-800. The reason for my mentioning was that they are both essentially good VA's.

I think I understand that the AN1x is good at recording transient modifications to parameters, but lacks a bit in the ease of programming. The JD-800 is supposedly a challenge to understand how to program but has everything on board for easy access. The price difference between the two is significant.

The similarity and attraction for me is that people that own the AN1x and JD-800 usually are very satisfied with the quality of the sound. I've not been much of a user of Roland since the late 80's and haven't been excited about many of their products since then with the exception of the V Synth, but the JD-800 looks like a good VA and is much more affordable.

I've always had a respect for the quality of sound and sturdy keyboard (build) of Yamaha synths but like Roland, most of their stuff is not so exciting. I do like the FM synths, and CS(n) lineup. I plan to get an FS1R someday.

Speaking of a glorified ROMpler (FS1R)... does the JD series by Roland really qualify as a ROMpler? I was thinking it was more useful for sound sculpting as well. I actually do create sounds on my FM synths as well as the wavetable Waldorfs, so it is pretty important to me.

CS_TBL · Post by **CS_TBL** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:43 pm

Since when is the FS1r a ROMpler? I hope you aren't referring to those FSEQs.

Post by **braincandy** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:10 pm

The FS1r isn't a rompler. It's an FM synth on steroids that's holy h**l to program using the front panel (use an editor!).

I wouldn't consider the JD a VA (yes, I know others consider the D-50 to be the earliest "VA" without it being called a VA). It's an early rompler, but it has a powerful filter, good effects section, and sounds better to my ears than the later JV/XP series. It can do analog emulation, but it's not technically a VA. You could argue that it does analog emulation better than some VAs, I guess. I've just thought of it as a really great digital synth and not so much an analog emulator.

The 990 doesn't have the sliders like the 800. But if you take the time to learn your way around it, then it's not that bad and the screen displays plenty of info for easy editing. I made some really nice pads on it before selling it and the buyer even requested that I leave them on there instead of restoring the presets.

drsynth · Post by **drsynth** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:21 pm

CS_TBL wrote:Since when is the FS1r a ROMpler? I hope you aren't referring to those FSEQs.

I was talking about the programmability of it. Last I heard there aren't many ways to dig into this beast - unfortunately.

BTW, I really like your FM8 work.

_seph · Post by **_seph** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:21 pm

drsynth wrote:
CS_TBL wrote:Since when is the FS1r a ROMpler? I hope you aren't referring to those FSEQs.
I was talking about the programmability of it. Last I heard there aren't many ways to dig into this beast - unfortunately.

BTW, I really like your FM8 work.

??? i'm confused how the difficultly in programming an FS1R has anything to do with ROMplers... a ROMpler is a synth that uses sample playback to generate its sound. they are the same thing as a sampler, minus the ability to record their own sounds. the JD is an example of this and the JV/XV modules that replaced it are arguably the kings of ROMplers. also, you keep calling the JD a Virtual Analog... which it isn't. the JP-8000 was Rolands first VA synth and Yamaha's AN1X was its direct competitor.

i always thought the JD-800 was a cool synth but i prefer the character of it's predacessor the D-50 a bit more which has a more interesting sound to my ears, soundwise i've just never found anything that comes forward enough to really set the JD-800/990 apart from ROMplers that followed afterwards aside from looking really cool and these days with softsynths like Atmosphere i think they lose a bit of their value.

a JD would give you something a bit different than the hardware you presently have, but if it were me i'd consider buying something like Omnisphere instead, especially since you're into 'soundtrack' type sounds. plus for the price of a JD-800 you could buy that and an AN1X which is a cool VA. for the longest time i've been thinking about picking one up as they aren't expensive and they have a few cool features... and it might look nice above my EX5 but i probably won't... and as you pointed out, you already have a few VA's and looking over what you've already got, i don't really think it would add much.

gordwiebe · Post by **gordwiebe** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:33 pm

I think you should get it straight that the jd800 is just a sample based roland rompler with a pretty cool interface... not a VA.
I think a lot of people get hard-ons for them because of the interface/looks/size and because it was the first (or close to first?) digital to have extensive front panel full programmability - not because of the sound.

Post by **knolan** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:56 am

Drsynth,

I'm a huge JD800 fan and own a number of them, and can’t recommend it highly enough. I believe the JD800 to be a truly great synthesizer and it is often underrated, perhaps because it’s grouped (incorrectly IMO) with other early 90’s synths seen as limited these days. Nothing could be further from the truth. This synthesizer has real depth, and is amongst the most versatile of synthesizers.

Firstly, as I’m sure you know it's not a Virtual Acoustic, and this is important. Rather, it contains 108 sampled waveforms used in its oscillators, which pass through digital filters and amplifiers. It's first 'best kept secret' is the nature and selection of waveforms it possesses - they are highly unique in design, an extremely versatile sample set of ‘sound fragments' from a range of sound sources - acoustic instruments, synth waves, noises, bells, gamelans, flutes, voices and so on (rather than attempts to be actual acoustic instruments, as in for example the T3). In the same way that just a sawtooth wave provides huge flexibility to an analog synth, virtually all of the samples in JD800 provide similar flexible raw-material for a myriad of sound designs that are truly gorgeous, and range from the incredibly subtle to the gargantuan. Almost all of the JD800s samples are as useful as is a sawtooth on an analogue synth so you end up using them, and find yourself in a synthesis and sound-design ‘wonderland’ unlike almost any other synth. This 'rompler' is far more flexible than the likes of the T3 or O1/W for lush soundscapes; while provides for stunning subtle solo sounds; especially given just how easy it is to program envelopes, velocity sensitivity settings, LFO settings and aftertouch through its awesome control surface. There’s nothing like it.

Then, with 4-way layered sounds all accessible through the control surface, you can create vast arrays of sounds simply not available on traditional VA's, romplers or analogue synths. I haven't played one, but I'd say the closest current synth to the JD800 is the Nord Wave.

Further - IMO - the filters on the JD800, while they can clip, sound wonderful and give it it’s very distinctive character. There are better digital filters but in my view, even though the JV2080 and XV5080 filters are superior, they are more generic and lack the very distinctive sound of the JD800. Combined with traditional excellent Roland effects such as chorus, enhancement and phaser, the JD800 has that amazingly unique 'enhanced' sound that makes synthesis so exciting and which has been exploited so famously on so many songs and soundtracks and which amazingly is not even accessible in the likes of the later JV and XV series.

Also - as I only learnt lately (from a JD800 user on this forum), the JD800 offers excellent filter slef-oscillation akin to an analog synth filter in full resonance; providing for the full plethora of Jarre –like 'Q' effects that can be created though modulation from the LFOs and Envelopes. Many VA synths still cannot do this.

Finally, - the pads. They are simply sublime and IMO unsurpassed in all of synthesis. For example, preset 27 is an enormous pad using 4 oscillators - three detuned sawtooths and a voice sample. Remove the voice sample and reduce the filter cutoff for the three sawtooths and you have the most velvet / silky smooth pad around. But it gets better - for although the JD800 does not have a Moog/Yamaha modulation wheel and hence cannot sustain vibrato / modulation during performance ( unless you program it into the patch or continue to hold its typical spring-loaded Roland mod stick) - if you use another midi controller with a modulation wheel to send just a little vibrato via a modulation wheel into the JD800 (preset 27 is configured to respond to pitch-LFO from a modulation wheel by default) the pitch-LFO introduced onto all three sawtooth waves - and with a hall reverb - transforms this pad into something truly incredible – an elusive and wondrous pad sound genuinely akin to the ‘airiness of a lush choir of strings’ where the individual oscillators cannot be discerned but instead you hear a stunning 'wall / mist' of sound and which also responds beautifully to filter aftertouch (by default). Preset 27 is the start of many, many amazing pad sounds and is why I use multiple JD800's (layering several JD800s on just this sound is to die for!!).

Overall, the JD800 is capable of both beautifully crafted solos and truly gargantuan pads and soundscapes; and will remain central to my setup for the long term. I also own an OASYS and in many regards it still can't compete with the JD800 (though I'm learning to program the OASYS in a similar fashion).

I should also say that THE pad sound mentioned here is utterly dependent on the JD800s sawtooth samples and filters which are amazing; and despite trying to program the same pad into the JV2080 and XV5080, I simply could not achieve the same silky sound - even with the XV5080 having the same JD800 sample on board its filters are sufficiently different and harsher not to allow for the same sound to be programmed.

I also own a JD990 and AN1x. The JD990 sounds just as good and is superior in some ways in its sound engine - but THE key to sound synthesis on the JD800 is to engage its control surface. So the JD990 will deliver the same sound but you’ll never program it the way you will a JD800.

I also love the AN1x but it is utterly different and cannot achieve anything like the palette of sounds as the JD800 has, but of course has huge strengths all of its own of course. The AN1x is a true instrument in its own right, make no bones about it.

Overall, if you are really and truly into synthesis, and I mean using the control surface of a synthesizer to make synthetic sounds and to perform them; then the JD800 is a pinnacle and a dream. It will not faithfully enough recreate standard acoustic instruments, but it delivers spectacularly as a true synthesizer.

I’m up to my tonsils with work, but will try to record and post some of my own presets over the next week.

Finally – try one out before you buy – there are plenty of people who genuinely do not like the JD800 to suggest that its not for everyone and you need to hear it to descide. Also – buy one in good condition – unless treated well by a previous owner, the JD800 can show its wear and tear; but a a well looked after one will weather respectful use for decades.

Kevin.

goom · Post by **goom** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:37 am

The Matrix 6 is an "real" analog synth, not a VA. Unless there's an VA I don't know about...

One thing about the JD800 - it's physically huge! Well, not incredibly huge, but it is rather deep front to back. If space is an issue maybe the suggestion of the 990 is a good idea. Then again, if you're going to consider the JD990, then why not consider one of the XV racks? They might have more sounds available, as well as more up-to-date features. Just a thought...

Z · Post by Z » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:06 am

Kevin pretty much summmed it all up. As another long time (and multiple) JD owner, I'd say it is one of the best synths ever made (not THE best, mind you). It is intuitively laid out and capable of some awesome sounds, especially pads. The JD-800 is usually the first synth I go to whenever I fire up my gear - originally because I could call up a familliar preset and start tweaking and nowadays becasue you don't have to wait for some system to load.

One thing to consider when buying a JD-800 is to check its aftertouch. The AT went out on my 1st JD years ago and I bought a new keyboard for it from Roland for around $200. I'm debating whether I should also buy a new keyboard for my 2nd JD - I probably will since it has a few busted keys.

My only real gripe with the JD-800 is that when it is the only synth playing, there is some (what I call) digital distortion that you can hear when a sound with a long release is fading out. I don't notice it on my JD-990, so Roland must have fixed this issue. I think there was a similar issue with the D-50/D-550.

You mentioned being into Berlin school. Although I wouldn't call this album Berlin school, TD used the JD-800 a lot on Rockoon. Other notable albums with signifigant JD use would be ELP's Black Moon and Ozric Tentacles' Jurrasic Shift and Live, Underslunky.

Like Kevin said, go play one first. Not sure where you are, but surely someone near you has one.

Post by **Cybercardinal** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:47 am

Klaus Schulze still uses his JD-800 a lot too. One of his favourite synths I read somewhere..

CapnMarvel · Post by **CapnMarvel** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:42 pm

Owning a Q and an XTk, which I wouldn't necessary call VA's but rather two different semi-modern extensions of the 'editable ROMpler' line of which the JD800 is the missing link, I've got to say that the JD800 is preferable for instant gratification and pure, great sound. I've also got a D-550, which sounds as 'good' but I simply never take the time to program. The JD is quite pleasing just to play, in addition to the ease of programming it. Everything on the panel is easily understood and a tweak is milliseconds away, rather than a rack synth with constant screen-squinting and button jamming being the name of the game. Full disclosure that I also love my JV-1080's sound, which was the 'son' of the JD800, but without the controllable interface.

The presets mostly blow on the JD800, but I've heard the expansion cards have some great stuff (they seem to be going for quite a bit on Ebay compared to the X-series and V-series cards) and programming being such a breeze even for a challenged individual like myself, it's no problem to cook up great, interesting stuff on your own. I'm absolutely overjoyed I have mine.

Post by **aeon** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:24 pm

drsynth wrote:Beyond the obvious "great pads" comments about this synth, what are it's benefits that I don't already find in the above VA gear?

The sound of sample-based synthesis as done by the Roland JD-engine.

drsynth wrote:Most of my music is centered on big thick soundtrack. Berlin School wannabee, ambient space synth c**p. So keep that in mind.

With the right effects processing, the JD synths can deliver bigtime for these applications.

drsynth wrote:The JD-990 looks pretty interesting. May be even more synth than the 800, but the programmability looks a bit undernourished.

This couldn't be further from the truth. The UI on the JD-990 is one of the best-designed, ever. Considering the significant advance in synthesis that the JD-990 offers, it is a wonder that it can be programmed as quickly as a JD-800.

Two of the most skilled JD programmers out there, clusterchord and Don Solaris, have both spoken of how incredibly easy it is to program the JD-990 from the front panel. I agree with them.

drsynth wrote:does the JD series by Roland really qualify as a ROMpler? I was thinking it was more useful for sound sculpting as well.

If you consider ROMpler to mean any synth that uses samples, then yes. If you consider ROMpler to mean ROM-based sample-player, a la E-mu Proteus/1, Roland U-series, and so on, then no. In a sense, it isn't important what you call it, really.

Based on your space concerns, the cost of the JD-800 vs. JD-990, and my experience as a one-time JD-800 owner and current and long-term JD-990 owner, I would recommend getting the JD-990. Consider these additional features of the JD-990 over the JD-800:

expanded waveform ROM (6MB on JD-990, 4MB on JD-800)
the ability to use an 8MB SR-JV expansion board (not on JD-800)
stereo panning for each Tone (not on JD-800)
matrix modulation of parameters (not on JD-800)
MIDI CC control of parameters (not on JD-800)
oscillator synchronization (not on JD-800)
cross-modulation - FXM (not on JD-800)
ring-modulation (not on JD-800)
engine structures allow for more complex routing (not on JD-800)
4-pole filters - 24dB/oct. possible via structures (not on JD-800, limited to 2-pole)
additional LFO waveshapes (adds sine, trapezoid, and chaos)
multiple-source modulation for single destination (not on JD-800)
polyphonic portamento (not on JD-800)
performance memories (not on JD-800)
additional multi-timbral slots
one patch can keep full effects in multi mode (not on JD-800)
tempo-sync delay (not on JD-800)
8 total outputs (4 on JD-800)

cheers,
Ian

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