Why doesn't hohner make a new clavinet?

brian.only · Post by **brian.only** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:44 am

Villi wrote:A new pianet would be nice though, with sustain!

+1

Tardis · Post by **Tardis** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:16 am

I'm a D6 owner, and there's nothing that plays, feels, or sounds like a real Clavinet. You feel every string hammer hitting through your fingertips, and can control the tone & sound by increasing or decreasing how hard you hit the keys. Clavinets are unique instruments, but they're not just limited to the Stevie Wonder, Disco sounds, that's a popular misconception. That's like saying every electric guitar sounds the same. Ask John Paul Jones how many songs he used a Clavinet on

The Clavinet can be used in many music applications with the right effects.

A modern Clavinet is pheasable. Pre-Amp and Pick-Up technology has come a long way since the Clavinet debuted. You could add a ton of built in effects too. Materials and hardware are the expensive part. I see a modern Clavinet being made out of particle board to keep cost down. I don't think it would sound the same though.

Automatic Gainsay · Post by **Automatic Gainsay** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:40 am

Bill Wolfer wrote:The clav is a guitar with a keyboard, and no synth can touch the way it feels to play it. check out this site, they make spare parts, humbucking pickups, show you how to modify the preamp to get rid of the hum. Clavinets rule!

I suppose I may've sounded just like the idiots who state that VA sounds just like analog.

Admittedly, no electronic instrument can duplicate the experience of playing a clavinet. I, like most of you, loved the feeling of the strings vibrating through the keys. It was a much more musical experience than a synth, etc. to be sure.

As for feedback, etc., I never got any sort of feedback from my E7. It very likely needed its hammers replaced, but still. A "variety" of sound could not be had from it. Sure, the various EQing tabs made a valiant effort at giving it a variety of sounds, but the clav sound is a very specific sound that resides in one aural niche, and it's nearly impossible to get it out of there. You just can't be lyric with a clav. You can't be mellow. You can't get a dull sweet sound. It makes the sound it makes, and that is a very cool sound, but it is not a diversely applicable sound. There is a reason why it became so popular with that funk style... because that is what it does best.

Because the variety provided was essentially EQing, (although I could get slight volume differences with mine by pounding, but pounding is a bad idea if you don't want to continually replace the hammers), getting a decent sample is much more viable with a clavinet than many other acoustic or electronic keyboard instruments. As we all know from sampling, it is variation, and especially variation over time that makes a keyboard or other instrument difficult to sample. The clav does not have a huge dynamic range, it does not have very much timbral nuance, and it doesn't have a very long sustain.

And let's remember that the clavinet was the Hammond Organ of Harpsichords. It was designed to be a more-portable harpsichord for people to play Baroque-era music upon. Like the Harpsichord, its application is a bit limited due to its timbre and envelope. There were a number of reasons the piano overwhelmed the harpsichord as a preferred instrument.

And back to the topic: Like the piano/harpsichord comparison, the Rhodes is a more versatile musical instrument, which is why it has found a home in so many genres of music. The clavinet, because of its very specific timbre and envelope, has found fewer.

All of that being said: I love clavinets. I regret, to some degree, selling mine. If a new clavinet was made, I would almost certainly be a potential buyer because the new version would likely address the few minor things I didn't like about my E7.

And, primarily: most of the buying public has never played a clavinet. They are not going to cut their teeth on a new one for exorbitant amounts of money. The people who currently have D6s, E7s, and the very cool older models (Clavinet L anyone? Coolest keyboard shape EVER) are not very likely to sell their cool and vintage-sounding clavs for a new one. So, who would be the market? People like me... but obviously, I am in the minority! I am not a minority worthy of the sort of design and material investment required to produce a new clavinet.

But I'd like it if I was. : )

Automatic Gainsay · Post by **Automatic Gainsay** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:43 am

Villi wrote:A new pianet would be nice though, with sustain!

That WOULD be nice!

Clavier · Post by **Clavier** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:09 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:It was designed to be a more-portable harpsichord for people to play Baroque-era music upon.

Marc, did you mean Clavichord?

Automatic Gainsay · Post by **Automatic Gainsay** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:03 pm

Clavier wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:It was designed to be a more-portable harpsichord for people to play Baroque-era music upon.
Marc, did you mean Clavichord?

It's not what I meant, it's what Hohner meant!
For the sake of specificity, though... I'll say "non-piano keyboard string instruments used in music of the Baroque and earlier."

Although the functionality of the clav is definintely more along the lines of the clavichord, I think Hohner was aiming for the whole non-piano Baroque, etc. market.

Bill Wolfer · Post by **Bill Wolfer** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:09 pm

Automatic Gainsay wrote:You just can't be lyric with a clav. You can't be mellow. You can't get a dull sweet sound. It makes the sound it makes, and that is a very cool sound, but it is not a diversely applicable sound.

You've got to go listen to Stevie Wonder's "Happier Than The Morning Sun." Then tell me that you can't be lyric or mellow with a clav. He did some other tunes in this vein back in the days, but this is the one that pops into my head right now. He plays it like an acoustic guitar on that track, it's brilliant.

People associate it with the funk stuff the way they associate Obie polys with Van Halen's Jump. It's a natural assumption, especially coupled with the fact that Clavs have been replaced by samples that are designed to only do that funk thing. But a real clav is really very expressive, and not easy to play: no sustain pedal, for one thing. Woof, I want my D6 back...

Automatic Gainsay · Post by **Automatic Gainsay** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:35 pm

Bill Wolfer wrote:
Automatic Gainsay wrote:You just can't be lyric with a clav. You can't be mellow. You can't get a dull sweet sound. It makes the sound it makes, and that is a very cool sound, but it is not a diversely applicable sound.
You've got to go listen to Stevie Wonder's "Happier Than The Morning Sun." Then tell me that you can't be lyric or mellow with a clav. He did some other tunes in this vein back in the days, but this is the one that pops into my head right now. He plays it like an acoustic guitar on that track, it's brilliant.

People associate it with the funk stuff the way they associate Obie polys with Van Halen's Jump. It's a natural assumption, especially coupled with the fact that Clavs have been replaced by samples that are designed to only do that funk thing. But a real clav is really very expressive, and not easy to play: no sustain pedal, for one thing. Woof, I want my D6 back...

I will have to check that track out, for sure. I would like to hear that! It's an honor and a pleasure to talk about this with you, Bill! Thanks for your input.

I wonder if perhaps my clav perception might be different if I had a D6 instead of an E7, and if perhaps, at least, my E7 would have had new hammers, no hum, etc. I have a number of recordings where I used it in a non-funky way, and the results were... well, not as good as I would've liked.
I am a Pianet enthusiast, and my Wurly doesn't have a sustain pedal, so I'm fine with lack of sustain! : )

All of this talk of clavs really really makes me want one again.
Hohner, can you hear me? I take back all that stuff I said about cost efficiency! I know one million people who will buy a clavinet if you make a great sounding one that is light, durable, under $2000 and doesn't hum! (everybody go with me on this, even if you're not going to buy one!)

sonny1 · Post by **sonny1** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:01 pm

goldphinga wrote:
MitchK1989 wrote: I know I personally can't stand the idea of clavinets in modern music.
Thats a bit of a sweeping generalisation! The clav can be treated in lots of differnt ways; using it creatively is what its all about and its just as relevant in 'modern' music. I know you said its a personal opinion but why cant you stand the idea? Not liking the idea is totally different to actually not liking a recorded clav in a modern track dont ya think?

Yeah I'd dig a new Clavi. I'd buy one too. My soul is with rock of the 70's anyway. h**l, I still rather do reel to reel anyday than straight to digital. But I think the price would be a big problem for me. If they did come out with a new Clav, You can bet they will want more than that sound is worth...(IMO).

I'm not buying the new rhodes....Well not when it comes out. I've got my eye set on a vintage dyno Rhodes intead. and a dyno 200 Wurly (for shows).

Worrell · Post by **Worrell** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:08 am

Yeah, the clavinet is way more versatile than a lot of people think, although maybe not as much so as the rhodes. I guess the sad truth is that the market just isn't big enough.

Still, a new clavinet would be pretty cool. 8)

Also, I agree that a new pianet with more features (like sustain) would also be awesome, although it would also have a pretty small market. Oh well, we can still keep hoping.

Johnny Lenin · Post by **Johnny Lenin** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:56 am

Of course, there's no reason why Hohner has to be the company to revive the Clavinet. There's no reason why a boutique company couldn't license the design and bring something to market. It wouldn't be cheap -- no economy of scale -- but a small boutique operation would be better suited to serving the niche market than a volume-based company like Hohner.

If you want to see the Clavinet revived -- and I'd be all for that -- you should think about going to NAMM and whispering in the ears of small instrument makers.

It'd be a $3000 keyboard, but it'd be a nouveau Clavinet...

rjd2 · Post by **rjd2** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:05 am

i agree with mr. wolfer, youd be surprised at the range of sounds you can get from a clav, especially with a fender twin, or tremolo amp. if you approach with its limitations in mind, you can write parts for it that can get well outside the mega-percussion thing.

goblin used clav in a very tony iommi-ish manner. low register, amp distortion, power chord style. also, the meters did some recording under another name(blanking on it right now) that used clav in a very mellow, laid back manner.

every time i play my clav it makes me wish i spent more time trying to master it. its a blast, but it always reminds me how much more than just a keyboard it is.

oh, AG, on the topic of E7 hum, theres a VERY easy fix. if you take the screws out of the left panel with the rocker switches, and slide it about 1/2 inch toward you......hum goes away. its not practical if you need to move it around alot, but is anyone gigged iwth a real clavinet since 1982 anyway? i leave mine like this, with the front panel off for tune=ups, and its a much more playable instrument. and yes, new hammer tips make a huge difference. 1 hr job, tops.

insky · Post by **insky** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:26 am

Johnny Lenin wrote:Of course, there's no reason why Hohner has to be the company to revive the Clavinet. There's no reason why a boutique company couldn't license the design and bring something to market. It wouldn't be cheap -- no economy of scale -- but a small boutique operation would be better suited to serving the niche market than a volume-based company like Hohner.

If you want to see the Clavinet revived -- and I'd be all for that -- you should think about going to NAMM and whispering in the ears of small instrument makers.

It'd be a $3000 keyboard, but it'd be a nouveau Clavinet...

I think this is really the only way for a new Clavinet to come to pass. Hohner is not the company it once was. At the present it would be increadibly stupid for them to release a new Clavinet. Right now they've got to focus on harmonicas and melodicas.

Automatic Gainsay · Post by **Automatic Gainsay** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:37 pm

rjd2 wrote:i agree with mr. wolfer, youd be surprised at the range of sounds you can get from a clav, especially with a fender twin, or tremolo amp. if you approach with its limitations in mind, you can write parts for it that can get well outside the mega-percussion thing.

Well, that's true. I mean, adding effects makes a whole new world for the clav. I can think of many effects and processes I could, and have, added to the clav to create the sounds I'm talking about... but by the time you are adding effects, you're changing the natural character of the clav. It could just as well be a clav sample under distortion, etc.

rjd2 wrote:oh, AG, on the topic of E7 hum, theres a VERY easy fix. if you take the screws out of the left panel with the rocker switches, and slide it about 1/2 inch toward you......hum goes away. its not practical if you need to move it around alot, but is anyone gigged iwth a real clavinet since 1982 anyway? i leave mine like this, with the front panel off for tune=ups, and its a much more playable instrument. and yes, new hammer tips make a huge difference. 1 hr job, tops.

I had the top tech in Saint Paul try to fix it. He improved it, but did not take it away. If that adjustment works, I wish I'd have known that!
I gigged mine in 1997 or so, but not much. Ugh, it was awful.
I used mine in the studio mostly, and wouldn't have minded taking the panel off for recording!

Jazzpunk · Post by **Jazzpunk** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:08 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:Well, that's true. I mean, adding effects makes a whole new world for the clav. I can think of many effects and processes I could, and have, added to the clav to create the sounds I'm talking about... but by the time you are adding effects, you're changing the natural character of the clav. It could just as well be a clav sample under distortion, etc.

If you're a clav fanatic than adding effects is just another layer to enhance a sound you already love. I'm sure you add effects to your analog synths from time to time. Does that mean you might as well have just used something like SampleMoog or a softsynth instead?!