Making a different kind of synth

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Stab Frenzy
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Making a different kind of synth

Post by Stab Frenzy » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:50 am

I've been thinking about a few different things lately, partly to do with what I'm doing at work and partly from a few different synths I've been looking at lately. Anyway, I've been looking at building an AVRsynth and then messing with the code a little bit to get it to do more of the kinds of things I want it to do.

Technically it wouldn't be too hard to make a 2 voice paraphonic synth with digital waveforms, a nasty analogue filter and distortion, so I'm going to look into that. To keep things fairly simple there would be no presets, each knob would be immediately active like a Juno 6 or 303 or a modular.

I like complicated synths as much as the next guy, with plenty of mod options and the ability to store a heap of patches, but sometimes I just want something really simple, distinctive sounding and fun to play. Anyone else in the same boat? A lot of my favourite patches on the Evolver have so much distortion on them that you can't hear what the subtle modulations are doing anyway, this would be a synth for that kind of stuff.

Depending on how it goes I'll document everything I've done and release it as open source, so anyone who's interested can make one themselves.

This is what I'm thinking so far:

2 digital oscs, with a few different waveforms. Messy digital waveforms. They'll play in (carefully detuned) unison if you play monophonically or if you play two notes they'll split. That way you can play power chords. :D (Or maybe I could get them to play octaves if you played mono... Hmmm, I'll have to return to this thought)
1 digital envelope for the filter.
1 digital LFO, routable to either the oscs or the filter. Maybe with some kind of tricky blend knob.
1 Analogue LPF, something with a bit of character. Pre-filter drive mandatory.
1 Analogue VCA, fed with a CV out from the digital control. I'm thinking with an overdrive control.

Due to the way the Atmel chip works the digital section could only have 8 analogue (ie pot) controls. The LFO would have to have rate and amount, the Envelope would need some controls too, at least Attack and Decay, or maybe full ADSR.

That leaves either 2 or 4 controls for the oscs. What do reckon would be useful? Portamento? Detune amount? Level controls? I'm kind of inclined to treat the osc section more like an organ or guitar and leave fine tuning/levels out of it. Maybe some kind of harmonics control would be good? Pseudo-PWM for all waveforms? (Shouldn't be too hard, it would just alter the rate at which the LUT was scanned)

Switches would be used for octave (so you could tweak it live), VCA env/gate, LFO waveform, OSC waveform and any other tricks I wanted to put into the code.

Analogue section would be easy, just controls for filter cutoff, resonance and drive. The env amount would be covered by the digital section, for both LPF and VCA. Could probably have a post VCA -> pre LPF feedback amount too.

So we're looking at a box with 11 or so knobs and up to 16 switches. Shouldn't be too hard to learn your way around, which rules out the need to have presets.

What do people think? Poly 800 on steroids? :lol: I'm interested on hearing anyone's thoughts on this, although as this is going to be a bit of a self indulgent project don't be offended if I decide not to heed your well-meaning advice. :D

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by prinsen » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:54 am

Very interesting. Hope you make your progress public either in blog form or here at VSE.

It's not quite clear to me if you plan making a desktop, rackmount or keyboard out of this.

One thought on the AD/ADSR 8 knob obstacle. My Quasimidi Sirius has one knob that does a preset range of 128 different ADS settings and one button that turns release on or off. While an actual ADSR with indiviual knobs is definitely preferable, to my surprise the Quasimidi solution isn't as limiting as it appears. Not sure how well it would fit into your concept or how difficult it would be to implement into your design, but it would save one or three knobs.
If you have no experience with the Sirius or other Quasimidi instruments that may have this function, I'd be happy to make a demonstrational clip for you.

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by Stab Frenzy » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:27 am

prinsen wrote:Very interesting. Hope you make your progress public either in blog form or here at VSE.
I will, university has taught me there's not much point doing anything if you don't document it. :)
prinsen wrote:It's not quite clear to me if you plan making a desktop, rackmount or keyboard out of this.
The first prototype will be a desktop, probably a similar shape the the x0xb0x as long as I can fit everything into it. The focus will be on tweakability so if it was going to be a rackmount it'd be 4-5U probably to get everything on there with a decent amount of space between the knobs. I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to get it on something smaller though.

A keyboard version would be awesome and would fit right into the idea behind it, but at this stage I think the engineering complexity involved in making a keyboard enclosure would be too much. I don't really like making enclosures.
prinsen wrote:One thought on the AD/ADSR 8 knob obstacle. My Quasimidi Sirius has one knob that does a preset range of 128 different ADS settings and one button that turns release on or off. While an actual ADSR with indiviual knobs is definitely preferable, to my surprise the Quasimidi solution isn't as limiting as it appears. Not sure how well it would fit into your concept or how difficult it would be to implement into your design, but it would save one or three knobs.
If you have no experience with the Sirius or other Quasimidi instruments that may have this function, I'd be happy to make a demonstrational clip for you.
That could work well and I get what you mean, the only thing is that in this case there would be no feedback to indicate which setting was chosen. I imagine on the Sirius the setting is displayed on the LCD? Anyway, at the moment I'm thinking that a simple AD envelope should do fine for the kind of stuff I'm looking at, although I should have enough inputs to do full ADSR. Another option would be to have one microprocessor doing the OSC section and another doing the LFO and Env, which would mean the possibility of mixing some of the digital elements in the analogue domain, which would mean more opportunities for distortion. :D

Oh by the way, I still really dig that track you did for the one synth one drum machine challenge, just saw you've got more stuff up, I'm gonna have a listen now...

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by nathanscribe » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:20 pm

You could use an ASR, with a sustain switch, for the envelope. The one in the Prodigy is a piece of cake to make, there's very little to it. That would leave a knob spare for something like +/- env mod amount on the filter or something.

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by prinsen » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:25 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:I imagine on the Sirius the setting is displayed on the LCD?
Yes, the LCD displays settings when you turn the knob. Also, there's a nice illustration printed on the panel next to the envelope section showing different envelope shapes and how they relate to the 0-127 values.
Stab Frenzy wrote:Another option would be to have one microprocessor doing the OSC section and another doing the LFO and Env, which would mean the possibility of mixing some of the digital elements in the analogue domain, which would mean more opportunities for distortion. :D
More opportunities for distortion = more opportunities for fun.

I'll be checking out your blog.

And, thanks, I've been digging The Emergency since before long ago, so I'm happy you got my track. Any chance of a European tour at some point?

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by monolith » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:48 pm

This sounds really exciting. I hope you go ahead and do it. :thumbright:

You mentioned that this relates to your work.. If you dont mind me asking, what is your profession?

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by Stab Frenzy » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:40 pm

It's not really a profession, I'm a sound engineer by profession but I'm working at a university at the moment helping out industrial designers with their projects, making little electronic gadgets for artworks and kind of just finding out about interesting technologies and interfaces that they could use for projects in the future. It's pretty fun and interesting.

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by Johnny Lenin » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:26 am

I'd be really interested in something like that -- sounds like a great idea. The DW8000 has made me really appreciate the combination of a digital sound source with analog LPF. A knobby VA with an analog resonance filter would be very nice...

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by MrFrodo » Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:47 pm

Good luck with it. Sounds like a pretty intense project.

But,could patch storage be added as an option?
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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by Stab Frenzy » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:51 am

MrFrodo wrote:But,could patch storage be added as an option?
No, that goes against the ethos of this synth.
Johnny Lenin wrote:A knobby VA with an analog resonance filter would be very nice...
It's not going to be a VA. The digital side is straight up digital, no modeling whatsoever. The analogue side is real analogue.

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by tallowwaters » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:17 pm

I would declare war on those that wouldnt buy it.
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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by Bitexion » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:27 pm

But..isn't "straight up digital" and "straight up analog" side exactly what the Evolvers do already?

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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by Yoozer » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:05 pm

Well, what's the problem with having more of 'm? :D
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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by tallowwaters » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:36 pm

Bitexion wrote:But..isn't "straight up digital" and "straight up analog" side exactly what the Evolvers do already?
Why bother talking? Others have done it better.
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Re: Making a different kind of synth

Post by Jabberwalky » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:35 pm

Cool Stab, I'm hoping this gets rolling without too many technical problems. In the osc section I think something like a bit depth knob would be really fun, but I'm not sure how possible that is. Detune amount is a must I think, but I think you should leave levels out. Keeping it raw like a guitar is a good idea. Maybe a knob that tunes one osc up whilst it tunes the other down in the same amount?

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