Is It Just Me?

[Zamise]

You'd not be able to tell differences otherwise, not without microscopic bar code cell analysis or questioning her about turning turtles over.

[urgetoplay]

In use, of course I would. Do a filter sweep on a Jup while changing the decay level on the vca's envelope. Then increase the lfo rate modulating the VCA. Now, try to do that with your sample based perfomance.

[Zamise]

In use, of course I would. Do a filter sweep on a Jup while changing the decay level on the vca's envelope. Then increase the lfo rate modulating the VCA. Now, try to do that with your sample based perfomance.

I can do that on my RS7000 no probs. Also on my Speki but it is prob in the overly expensive catagory, and I have to relearn the dang thing every time I turn it on, once every six months.

[urgetoplay]

which is quicker and more intuitive? A sample based setup offers a lot of sonic pallette that analig can't touch but emulating analog? Not even as a punchline to a joke..

[urgetoplay]

its a shame you're not close; it be interesting to see a live comparison. Perhaps I'dbe surprised.

[Zamise]

Well, when you sample the h**l out of an old synth you don't just sample a single cycle waveform now days and use another sound engine on it. You sample the tweaks as well, at that point it isn't an emulation, sonically, it is an identical playback. However, I can do what you said with a single cycle waveform on my RS, those functions are immediately accessible with the knobs on it. Anyhow, long samples are why I don't care about getting involved in an emulation argument, you guys are right that, they won't hold up to tight scrutiny, but a perfect playback you should not be able to tell which is the original sound recording or the copied playback. You would be seeing a picture of the real mila, next to a copy of that picture, and then being digitial another identical copy and so on. That is not possible with analog anything. You can't even copy a sound identically on the same synth. There is something to be said about uniqueness, but I'm not going to fool myself, that is the beauty of old synths' sound, that and they simply look and feel like you shouldn't be tweaking the knobs because if they break off they arn't so easily replaceable.

[AnalogKid]

If one of us went into, say, a vintage Corvette forum and started a thread about how we just don't understand why a '63 Split Window is so expensive when a 2011 Camaro can do the same things an old 'Vette does for less money we'd be immediately flamed and possibly booted.

As I mentioned in a previous post on this thread, to me, $5,000 is a huge sum of money. Perhaps it isn’t to many of you. That being said, in essence what you’re saying in your comment above is that the “huge sum of money” often being asked for “classic” analog synths is due to their value as collector items, not their functionality. For the Corvette forum analogy to apply to questions regarding synthesizers, there would seem to be no other way to interpret this. A ’63 Split Window is only worth big bucks because of its value as a collector item due to its scarcity. Little to none of its value is based on its functionality, on the fact that it can get you from A to B (the job of all cars). Anyone who has taken an introductory economics course knows that scarcity adds value to an item.

When it comes to “classic” analog synths, this is perhaps where a difference of opinion may exist between others and myself. To me (again, I stress a subjective “to me”) the collector value, the scarcity of a synthesizer holds no sway in my mind, none. When it comes to my thinking about synthesizers, I am completely, 100% guided by functionality. What can it do, and what synths will give the most bang for the buck. Based on some of the acerbic replies on this thread, my position on where old “classic” analogs fit in with my personal ideas of bang for the buck doesn’t sit well with some of you out there. I’ve repeatedly used words such as “to me” and “in my opinion” and “subjective” in describing my take on what I believe to be exorbitant prices being asked for old “classic” analogs. It would seem that with some folks on this forum, expressing opinions isn’t acceptable.

Based on how this thread has progressed, it may seem hard to believe, but I don’t just look at a synth as to how well it can sound like an old analog synth. As you all know, many modern synths can do way more than the analog subtractive synthesis of the old “classics.” This is why I personally find it hard to believe that some of these “classic” synths will have asking prices of $5,000, $8,000, $10,000 and more when multiple modern synths can be had that do more for a fraction of the money. Yeah, I concede that virtual analog doesn’t sound just like real analog (I have never said otherwise), but real analog doesn’t sound like what modern synths can do either. As I’ve pointed out a few times on this thread, the difference between real analog and well done virtual analog aren’t great enough in my book to pay huge sums of money. Only discriminating ears are able to tell the difference. Most fans in an audience will neither hear nor care that VA is being used in place of real analog. Some of the posts on this thread make it sound as if modern synths sound like c**p. This is certainly not the case.

It’s been great dialoguing with most of you. I appreciated many of the comments. Some of you need to learn how to play nice with others. AnalogKid signing out (perhaps to the applause of some).

[mizu]

It’s been great dialoguing with most of you. I appreciated many of the comments. Some of you need to learn how to play nice with others. AnalogKid signing out (perhaps to the applause of some).

I don't get you

[AnalogKid]

It’s been great dialoguing with most of you. I appreciated many of the comments. Some of you need to learn how to play nice with others. AnalogKid signing out (perhaps to the applause of some).

I don't get you

Some are perhaps applauding because I signed off on this thread. In other words, they're happy to see me go, and are perhaps applauding the fact that I'm leaving because they don't like me.

[knolan]

To the original poster:

I agree that many old synthesizers are unreliable and as a result sound awful and do nothing more than frustrate. But, these days, exquisite restorers like RL Music / KSR (Kent Spong) make these instruments astoundingly reliable. I have spent the past 17 years having 3 CS80s restored to better than new condition - and far more reliable (as one example, RL/KSR laden the instruments with DC decoupling capacitors to stabilize them and render them far less prone to static problems). I'm not wealthy in any way - I just decided that, for the CS80, it was worth the wait, the patience relative expense (though we're talking less than 10 Grand to have all three restored). By comparison - a single good Grand Piano costs more than that.

So - I own 3 of the best examples of the CS80 in existence; with perhaps no more than 1000 in total in operation today. What do you think they are worth to me? (The answer is that they are priceless - to me!).

So - the price of a CS80 - in pristine condition, is partially based on their rarity, partly on the expense to get them back to top notch condition and partially based on quality, reputation and historical context.

When you compare the price of a mint CS80 to even a good upright piano, let alone an average boring motor car; they cost next to nothing. Even, say, £12,000 for one is worth it - to many - because they know they could blow more money on drink in a year or two or on on something like petrol. I'm sorry, but by comparison to the sorts of money paid out for other mundane items, the price of rare, mint, synthesizers is just not that much.

I totally accept that it might not be worth it to you - it doesn't matter what the price of say, rare pottery is to me - I will never be interested in it and never pay out for it - but I would never say that it's not worth the asking price.

Likewise - it's completely OK for you to not value these instruments, and not understand or ' get' what others see in them; but it's an altogether different thing for you to question the underlying prices that are going these days - the sorts of money we're talking is minute. I can imagine my CS80s going above £50,000 in my life time (and unless needing the money I'll never, ever sell so I'm not trying to push the price up) - it's just nothing in the 'rare' market would surprise me.

But apart from that - the CS80 is a stunning instrument and design. I really mean it. It has taken more than a decade, and believe me - many journeys from Dublin to London (driven personally and each wrapped in 7 king-sized duvets(!)- even a haulier transporting Grand Pianos and Sotheby’s Art from London to Dublin managed to damage a CS80 badly on me - after it's 1st restoration!! ) to get these instruments close to 100% - but when they hit the sweet-spot - boy is it a privilege to sit at a CS80 - it's like nothing else I know of (and I own a lot of synths). The CS80 can go from velvety solo to Monstrous screach and back again in a breadth. Integrated into modern recording DAW environments and effects, it's jaw-dropping. It IS Heaven on Earth.

So all I can say to you is that getting into Vintage Synthesizers is an activity of patience, perseverance and passion, but it pays off - in spades - I promise you that.

But - I agree - it must be (for me) a vintage Synth in pristine condition - to hit its "sweet-spot". anything less (to me) is heart ache and can drive you to distraction!!

As an aside - to anyone thinking of really committing to your dream vintage synth - in my opinion it is totally possible. You just have to allow your self (and a restorer) several years - giving you the time to source, save and have a proper restoration (and A+ transportation) all set in place. A CS80, JP8, ARP2500, Minimoog - they can be owned by anyone - in as good as new condition - if you have the patience and where with all to put a bit of your budget aside over several years to see the job through properly. Believe me - it's worth it (and, to be very purist about it - it's great for posterity because you're bringing another classic instrument back to prime condition and supporting restorers in maintaining these vital skills).


Kevin.

[Psy_Free]

Is it just me or does anyone else think it's totally unfair that knolan has 3 CS80s while many of us have none

[bad andy]

This argument is kind of silly. The fickle nature of "value" is so subjective there will never be an answer, just food for argument. Personally I think partly the value can boil down to inspiration... is there more inspirational value in using an old Analog keyboard vs. modern equivalents? Perhaps. One guy might hear and feel the response and sound a certain vintage keyboard creates and a musical explosion might go off in his head. That same guy might never have the same experience using software, even after you've got all the components working in your system to achieve the same tactile feel (knobbed controllers, non-crashing software, audio i/o for computer, etc.) So I think partly in this case, value can boil down to how the keyboard may (or may not) inspire a musician to create. And that's what it is about right, creating music? If someone is happy to spend $10k to get inspired so be it. If someone can equally get inspired by a $250 yamaha PSRxxx, then so be it.

I think we all do know (this is VSE after all) that the Vintage boards DO sound different than modern and software equivalents. It's just whether that difference matters to a particular person. For some it does, for others it doesn't. There never will be an end to this argument, but if any of the readers have decided to abandon their old vintage boards for modern ones, please feel free to let me know, cuz' I love the old vintage beasts - just can't afford too many of 'em

Oh and by the way, cheese on the hot dog, maybe some chili if it's around. That's the winner. However, is deli-american worth the extra $2-$5 over packaged american slices? 8)

[CS_TBL]

Is it just me or does anyone else think it's totally unfair that knolan has 3 CS80s while many of us have none

Others have 32 FM8s

[Ned Bouhalassa]

Others have 32 FM8s

[arpmaniac]

I respect all that people who spend time and money to restore synths in their past glory, but 10.000+ (20.000,00 now in ebay!) is a ridiculus price for a CS-80...it hasn't that value in any reason... (from the musical point of view, not collectors).